Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone

[Otto Von Blotto]

Good luck with it mate!

 

Once it's ready to drink, if it does seem a bit over-bittered, you can always adjust the Magnum the next time to account for it.

 

For my palate, brewing it as described here yields an almost identical beer, and there were side by side blind taste tests done with a commercial bottle. I admit I did find it difficult to pick which one was which; the differences were very subtle. It really is a great recipe and a good choice for your first foray into AG!

[Xenon]

It really is a great recipe and a good choice for your first foray into AG!

 

heh yeah' date=' as I was picking up my bill the LHBS girl said " ahh looks like a Sierra Nevada for a first step eh? good choice" [img']lol[/img]

[Otto Von Blotto]

Nice one.

 

Might have to pick up some Cascade next time I go to CB and brew another batch of it myself!

[ben 10]

Mileage varies as do tongues.

Bitter for one is not for the other.

For me, and for no chill, I would add the hops very differently. BUT that is for me.

Try it and see, play, make more beer, drink it and then work out what works for you.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Pretty much what Ben said.

 

First time around, brew it as written (with those adjustments mentioned for AA%). Taste test it, preferably side by side with a bottle of the original, and then decide whether it needs tweaking the next time. You may find it does, or you may find that it's perfect as is, like I did.

 

Only way to find out with certainty is to brew it.

[Beerlust]

Mileage varies as do tongues.

Bitter for one is not for the other.

For me' date=' and for no chill, I would add the hops very differently. BUT that is for me.

Try it and see, play, make more beer, drink it and then work out what works for you.[/quote']

If you're brewing it to tongue, you're not brewing a clone.

 

Sure, make alterations to any offered "clone brew" to satisfy your own tastes. This particular clone brew has been around longer than most & is regarded as something very close to the Sierra Nevada commercial brew by all who have home brewed it.

 

If after you alter it, don't claim it to be a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone.

 

Xenon, if it were me, cool the wort to approx. 80°C & add that 60gm Cascade addition & then let that steep for 30mins.

 

Lusty.

[ben 10]

& is regarded as something very close to the Sierra Nevada commercial brew by all who have home brewed it.

Not by me' date=' I brewed it and found it way too crystally and to me didn't taste like the real thing.

 

Xenon, if it were me, cool the wort to approx. 80°C & add that 60gm Cascade addition & then let that steep for 30mins.

 

Which is not the recipe and therefore not a clone... :)

[Otto Von Blotto]

I would not cool the wort to 80C and let steep for 30 minutes. You are no-chilling and you want the wort in the cube at at least 80C, even better above 90C. Yes, it's not what the recipe calls for either, but the first point is more important.

 

I would just stick to your original plan the first time around, which is brewing it as it is. If it needs tweaking, this can be done later but you obviously have to brew it as written first to work that out.

[headmaster]

I can offer some research here about the temperatures you may expect from the no chill process.

 

First of all, this recipe (similar to the one I posted in the start of this thread) is a cracker IMO, and a great choice Xenon.

 

With my thermowell, like Kelsey found, I see a drop from 99.8c to close to 91-92c over the whirlstand/hopstand 10 to 15 mins. This is no different to those who use chillers so the process is no different to the end of this stand.

 

When racking to cube, a lot of cooling happens, through the transfer through the silicon hose to cube, and in the cube itself. I have measured the temp now on three occasions immediately after racking to cube, and it has ranged from 77c to 82c. Hop acid isomerisation according to a couple of googles, happens somewhere in the 80's, one reference said over 89c another claimed 82c.

 

Regardless, once you've racked to cube, there should be no more bitterness being imparted, and should not be any more bitter than those using a chiller. The flavour/aroma profile might be slightly different, but if dry hopped this may not make a lot of difference.

 

Within 10 mins of being in the cube, I have recorded a drop on another 10c to 60c's, then takes some 24 hrs to reach ambient. I used to drop my cube/jerry in the pool to chill faster but after taking these measurements I don't see any reason to do this. Another thing to remember, the stuff is sealed in a container with most of the air squeezed out, not a lot of opportunity for the volatile oils that make up the aroma and flavour to go anywhere, and they should be locked in with the liquid. If anything, you could actually lose more during a chilling process as the wort is still off-gassing to the atmosphere while chilling.

 

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Interesting points there Headmaster, and perhaps explains why I don't get excessive bitterness even though I don't bother adjusting hop additions for no-chill. Also gives more credence to the idea of a standard adjustment for no-chill essentially being a total crock of shit. Not saying it isn't necessary in some situations, but a blanket standard is stupid because everyone's experience is different. Also a good reason not to let it drop below 80 before cubing it if it does drop that far because it would defeat the whole purpose of no-chilling in the first place.

 

I imagine the temp of the hose and the cube would play a part too - I rinse both with hot tap water just before transfer. Next brew day I'll take a measurement before I put the lid on the cube and see what it actually is in there.

[Beerlust]

I would not cool the wort to 80C and let steep for 30 minutes. You are no-chilling and you want the wort in the cube at at least 80C' date=' even better above 90C. Yes, it's not what the recipe calls for either, but the first point is more important.[/quote']

If you choose not to cool the wort to 80°C before adding that flameout 60gm Cascade addition then you are still isomerising the alpha acids in the hop oils that contribute to bitterness adding IBU's in the process, thus the beer is no longer a 38 IBU beer.

 

That said, I do agree with the points you made a little earlier in post#24 of this thread relating to that. I've made Pale Ales with IBU's in the high 40's that involve a lot of late hopping, and the bitterness from these additions is a lot smoother than what would be achieved if using them at traditional earlier bittering points in the boil that created the same IBU number.

 

Regardless of all that, I wish you well with your first BIAB Xenon, & hope the beer turns out to be a ripper!

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's fine if you have a wort chiller. If you're no-chilling then you need the wort going into the cube above 80C otherwise the risk of infection is higher. But yeah like I said, the influence of those flameout hops on the bitterness at drinking time is negligible in my experience.

[Xenon]

Hey fellow brewers!

 

Well, today was brew day...and let me say, it went amazingly! I kept waiting for *something* to not go right, or to stuff up with something somewhere, but it went like clockwork.

 

I'd like to think it's because I've done an awful lot of reading and preparation and asking helpful fellows such as yourselves on here that made it happen so well, so on that front let me say thank you all very much!

 

Mash in went great. Initial strike temp was perhaps a little high, I had it at about 72 degrees, but it only dropped to around 67.5 after doughing in, so I left the top off the urn for a little while to drop it a bit and it spent the majority of the time at mid-60's. I also turned the urn on for the last 10 mins and stirred continuously so ended up at 70 at flame out (90 min mash). The pulley system I rigged up worked flawlessly. I had a mate helping, but the pulley in combination with the excellent bag design (got it from craft brewer) meant I spilled maybe 10 drops, if that...It was a perfect operation. I bought one of those sink strainers from Kmart and the bag fitted into it so well it was like it was all designed to work together. OG reading prior to boil was 1.040 , spot on my expected reading from beersmith.

 

Boil went great too. I was a little worried I was going to have too much wort left over so at the last minute I decided to go for a 90 min boil instead of 75, and this is probably the only thing that went *slightly* askew... I didn't quite have as much left at the end and I REALLY had to squeeze the crap out of the cube to not have any air bubbles inside it. All good now though , and next time I will stick to a 75 min boil and perhaps slightly more initial water to start with.

 

I know the numbers are not necessarily that useful to other peoples setups, but final grav was higher than expected at 1.053 (expecting 1.051) so all good there, and an efficiency of around 73% by my calculations so am really happy with that.

 

All in all though, it was a great day , and the *real* Sierra Nevada's we were consuming during the brew really set the mood for a great session. I will be pitching this batch tomorrow night, and this will be the longest 4 or 5 weeks of anticipation I will have experienced in my admittedly short brewing journey.

 

So once again thanks to all on here, looking forward to my next one, and will be sure to give a report on this lot when it's ready!

 

Ken

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hi Ken,

 

Glad to hear it all went well!

 

You probably could have fitted the lid at dough in - it still would have dropped a bit.

 

Did you only raise it to 70 before removing the bag? Probably not a big deal, as bringing it to boil/boiling will denature the enzymes but usually a mash-out is done in the high 70s.

 

I daresay if you'd kept to the 75 minute boil you'd probably have hit 1051 and filled the cube more, but it is a learning experience and you'll know for next time. Personally I'd rather tip a litre of wort, than end up with 2 or 3 litres less than I wanted in the first place. Given you're only pitching it tomorrow night you probably could have gotten away with not squeezing the cube, but it is a good habit to get into anyway.

 

Good stuff on the pulley system, they are definitely a useful thing for this type of brewing. I wouldn't be without mine now!

 

I look forward to hearing how it turns out in a few weeks time!

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

Sounds like a job very well done Ken!

 

I know how you feel, I did my first AG batch only a few months ago, and it was great fun to see it actually happen. Looks like you've nailed it and I'm sure it's going to taste fabulous.

 

Time to make another batch of something I'd say! Can you run another fermenting vessel somewhere? Can't have that urn sitting around doing nothing!

[Xenon]

Okay so I poured the cube into the fermenter tonight. First thing I noticed was it ended up being 23 litres, a little less than I expected. I guess that's why I had to squeeze the crap out of the cube to get nearly all the air out of it.(cube holds about 27/28). Not too disappointed though , did a quick grav check and it's sitting at 1.052 so that's fine. Also rehydrated for the first time, just followed a youtube clip and it was a piece of cake, and the US05 is sitting in the wort in the ferment fridge hopefully doing it's stuff right now.

 

So now I'm thinking about processes for the next brew. How much crap do you guys get in the bottom of your urn? Mine was sitting pretty much right at the bottom of the tap outlet, which from my pre brew measurements is about 2.7 litres. I used whirfloc at 10 mins , but it certainly didn't leave a hard layer on the bottom, it was more like a pea soup. I did want to use brewbrite but no one seemed to have any so went with the whirlfloc. One thing that would have contributed to it was I forgot to put the first hop addition in the hop sock, and just dropped it in the boil so that would have added a bit of crap to the trub I guess, as after I took the sock out at end of steep I was surprised how much it had expanded.

 

So I figure next time I might start with 37 litres (started with 36 this time) , and go with just a 60 min boil. The water level dropped from 34 preboil to 27 post boil , so hopefully should end up with a full cube next time.

[headmaster]

I leave behind about 2 litres. I use a stainless hop spider from keg king so no hop matter, the hops hold a bit of wort in it.

 

With my tap I've found if I only open it part way, much less trub ends up in the cube. Takes longer though to transfer. You can get an idea of the right speed by looking at the trub when you get low enough to see it. It is like curdled milk or pea soup in my limited experience as well. Certainly not firm enough to hold any shape. You could reduce (a post recently talked about this) , by skimming the hot break as it approaches 100c coming up to the boil.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yep agreed, it doesn't form a hard layer, it is rather easily disturbed by draining the wort. Another trick you could try is to tilt the urn backwards at flame out so it all settles away from the tap outlet. I'll be doing this next brew day I think. I replaced the urn's tap with a 3 piece SS ball valve as well, which makes adjusting the flow rate a lot easier.

 

You noted doing a 90 minute boil; going from 34L to 27L in that time isn't too bad. That's a boil-off rate of about 4.66L per hour. I don't think you need to start with more water at the beginning, aside from risking overflowing the urn when you put the grains in, I think a reduction in boil time is all that is needed to get more volume in the cube. Try 75min next time with the urn tilt back at flameout and see how it goes. You should be able to fill your 25L cube without having to squeeze it by doing this, especially from a 34L pre-boil volume.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[ben 10]

I did want to use brewbrite but no one seemed to have any so went with the whirlfloc.

 

Both do pretty much the same thing and brewbrite is difficult to get now. The manufacturer has replaced it on a retail level with Brew tan B (or something).

I quite often dump some of the crap at the bottom of the kettle into the cube. When tipping the cube it has settled well and most stays out of the FV

[headmaster]

when I have pushed the limits of my kettle, a 38 litre crab cooker, I have been caught out by the swelling of the grain. I think it may have been when I started with 34 litres, after doughing in the grain it takes a little while to hydrate, at which time the swelling appears to increase the volume in the kettle by a surprising amount. Made a bit of a mess for me that time. I think it was a large grain bill, 5.5 to 6kg kg from memory.

 

The same overflow risk is there when you approach 100c as the hot break forms. Even though you have taken out the grain, the hot break rises rapidly from about 96 to 98 deg. Those guys on brulosophy use an additive fermcap-s I think it is to prevent foaming when they are pushing the limits of a kettle.

 

If I want to increase volume I just sparge the grains a bit more. I usually factor in 1 kettle at 1.8 litres, but easy enough to do another one to increase final wort volume. I usually start with around 30 litres which prevents the above overflow issues for me, and usually target 23 litres into 20 jerry cube. (30 minus grain loss minus boil off plus sparge= about 25 in kettle 23 into cube)

[Xenon]

Some more great ideas here , thanks guys! Next time I will go for a 75 min boil, scoop the crud off the top of the boil, and tilt the urn during the steep and I should have a much healthier level in my cube. Just as an aside, my FV has a nice Krausen on it now, I was a little worried when I checked it this morning as it was as flat as a tack, usually I see a good krausen within 6-10 hours but it's fine now. I thought one of the points of rehydrating the yeast was to give it a quick start, but then US05 can be a bit of a slow starter so next time I'll use nottingham and see how that goes. One other thing though, the wort is quite dark, almost black, hopefully it loses a lot of that colour during ferment as it looks more like a stout at the moment...smells okay though

[Otto Von Blotto]

You should be ok not scooping the crud off the top of the boil in regards to it boiling over. In my experience with my urn, it isn't powerful enough to cause it to do that. When mine come to the boil, it does rise a little, but nowhere near boiling over. Then the boil starts properly and it all disappears. The Brulosophy guys all have pots and gas burners, which can be adjusted of course for less or more heat, and they're usually boiling a lot more wort - with pretty much the same 'headspace' between the top of it and the top of their pots as you get with a standard size batch in an urn.

 

If you're trying to reduce the amount of crap in the bottom of the urn after the boil, then it may be of some use. I've never bothered so I can't really answer that with any certainty.

 

I wouldn't take too much notice of the wort colour in the fermenter. It always looks darker because it's a large volume. Have a look at it in your hydrometer test jar when you take FG samples, this will give you a better idea of what colour it is.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[porschemad911]

The same overflow risk is there when you approach 100c as the hot break forms. Even though you have taken out the grain' date=' the hot break rises rapidly from about 96 to 98 deg. Those guys on brulosophy use an additive fermcap-s I think it is to prevent foaming when they are pushing the limits of a kettle.[/quote']

G'day headmaster,

 

I would just revise the batch size in your brew software of choice to lower the pre-boil volume to a safe level so you don't have to worry about boilovers. I do this and enjoy the peace of mind on brew day as the mash runnings come to a boil

 

Cheers,

 

John

[headmaster]

Good advice Porshemad, I have already done so and make up volume if required with sparge water. I don't think I could be bothered scooping hot break either but might give it a go to see what the effect is

[antiphile]

The effect is really quite beneficial, Mr Chipps. It gives you something to keep you occupied while you're waiting on your watched pot that never seems to want to boil. The resulting distraction reduces your stress, which concomitantly limits adrenaline release and, thus, prevents further hypertension. QED.

 

As for the beer, it does absolutely nothing. Hot break is the exact equivalent of poaching an egg; it is merely the denaturing of protein that is susceptible to the process at temperatures up to wort boiling point (i.e. approximately 102C for a "standard" pre-boil OG near 1.040). The amount you will be able to physically remove is miniscule in percentage terms.

 

It is suggested you will still need to use kettle finings that bind proteins toward the end of the boil, which allows you to leave a lot behind after draining the kettle, and plenty more in the trub in the FV. So, may I suggest that if you want to do it for health reasons, go nuts! For any other reason, why bother?