Bohemian Pilsner

[headmaster]

Hope it turns out fine with this one Otto, you've gone to a lot of trouble there by the looks of it with the water and mash. Thinking aloud, I guess a large funnel with stocking filter when pouring into the cube might help to keep out some trub?

 

In any case that Pilsner Urquell clone I was posting about a while back, my first extract brew, following Phil's linked recipe apart from the yeast (harvested w34/70 plus coopers lager blend) and using pellets rather than flowers, (pilsen DME) has been in the bottle for a week and a half, tried one last night and I was in heaven.. I guess I need a bottle of the real stuff to compare, but I was real proud of this one, even after only such a short time in the bottle and only 2 weeks lagering.

 

I'm drinking my previous batch, which was based on a Euro lager can and saaz flavour and dry hop additions, this is ok, once aired a bit, but the Urquell clone is streets ahead even this young.

 

Maybe I have done something wrong with the Euro lager can one, but I can say that there is that homebrew taste, (not dominating, just a bit of it), even after it was lagered for 4 weeks, and after almost 5 weeks in the bottle, that goes away if you pour a glass and let it air for a while, maybe a swirl or two, or if I pour half of a 750 and leave the other half in the bottle in the fridge for a while.

 

I've tried the brulosophy lager method on the latest batch in the FV now, (spare OS Lager can, 1kgBE1 1kg pilsen dme) and have a question about his '50% attenuation' spec.

 

Is this apparent attenuation he refers to?

 

Is he simply referring to the halfway point to final gravity, final gravity being '100%' attenuated when actually it would only be about 80% real attenuation?

 

In any case I began to wind up the temp when I hit 1025, OG 1048, estimated FG 1011. Has actually finished a bit higher at 1015, possibly due to the maltodextrin in the box of BE1 I guess.

 

I think this method shoudl probably take into account how active the fermentation is, as by the time you've wound up the temp, the brew could easily have gone close to FG long before you hit approx 18°c

[antiphile]

Attenuation This term is usually given as a percentage to describe the percent of malt sugar that is converted by the yeast strain to ethanol and CO2. Most yeast strains attenuate in the range of 65 - 80%. More specifically, this range is the "Apparent" attenuation. The apparent attenuation is determined by comparing the Original and Final gravities of the beer. A 1.040 OG that ferments to a 1.010 FG would have an apparent attenuation of 75%.

 

(From FG = OG - (OG x %) => % att. = (OG-FG)/OG)

 

The "Real" attenuation is less. Pure ethanol has a gravity of about 0.800. If you had a 1.040 OG beer and got 100% real attenuation, the resulting specific gravity would be about 0.991 (corresponding to about 5% alcohol by weight). The apparent attenuation of this beer would be 122%. The apparent attenuation of a yeast strain will vary depending on the types of sugars in the wort that the yeast is fermenting. Thus the number quoted for a particular yeast is an average. For purposes of discussion, apparent attenuation is ranked as low, medium, and high by the following percentages:

65-70% = Low

71-75% = Medium

76-80% = High

 

from How to Brew by John Palmer.

[headmaster]

So the 50% att in the brulosophy method, could be translated to approx fermentation 70-75% complete?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, this batch (and the next although that one is better) I will consider learning experiences. The next brew day, most likely next Saturday, I'll be brewing the recipe again, the only difference this time being that I'll be using a more conventional mash. I've decided to go with 63C for 70 mins, then ramp up to 69 for 10 mins, then mash out at 78. Beginning the mash at this higher temperature *should* result in a lot less rubbish being released from the grains and screwing up the urn's element, if the 20 odd batches previously brewed this way are any indication.

 

He's referring to 50% of the OG if it theoretically went down to 1000. In other words, take the last two digits of the OG and halve this figure, and begin your ramp up from there. I guess it's not really 50% of either real or apparent but I suppose it's the simplest way to explain it. How active the fermentation is will have an impact on how long this takes of course, which is why it's a good idea to take SG readings to confirm, however if you are using the same yeast over and over it should become pretty predictable how long it will take. If you take a reading 7 days after pitching and it's lower than the 50% number, then you can probably assume on the next batch that it is working quicker, and take a reading on day 5 and see what it is.

 

The ones I fermented with W34/70 were usually at this figure by about 7 days, but I wasn't using the Brulosophy method on those, so I waited a couple more days before ramping up.

[headmaster]

Cheers for that, simple to work out. I must be pitching quite a bit of yeast, as my two last brews using harvested W34/70/coopers lager 'house' strain has been really motoring. Even wound it back to 9°c and it was still humming. Pitched half the amount this time compared to last, about two cups of medium density slurry (pitch temp 12c), and it was 1025 after 4 days. Previous one, the urquell clone was at this gravity after only 48hrs.

 

The beer I mention in the previous post that has that slight 'homebrew' off taste until offgassed, was pitched with the dry yeast mix, that was the original brew I have harvested from. It took a good 36hrs to show signs of activity, might be something to do with the results.

 

Just looking at my notes, the urquell clone that tastes great after two weeks lagering and 10 days in bottle, I ramped to 17c it at 1022, which according to your calc method, was close enough to 50% as og was 1045. So looks like that was effectively the brulosophy method, and certainly it tastes none the worse for not really having been lagered. No H2S detected at all. Next beer I'm planning to do your Red Ale recipe OVB, that ruby colour in the avatar is mesmerising..

[Otto Von Blotto]

That W34/70 is pretty quick in my experience. My first proper lagers were done with it, and I was surprised to see the SG drop as quickly as it did. I was expecting to wait over 3 weeks to reach FG, from what I had read about lager fermentations. Of course, now I know better that every yeast and ferment will behave differently, as evidenced by this Urquell lager yeast. It is quite slow by comparison. It's just beginning to show signs of fermentation now, 30ish hours post-pitch.

 

It's hard to say what caused that flavour in the original beer. It could be pitching dry, it could be the lag time, it could be the kit itself. It's great to hear that the subsequent batch turned out excellently though! And another tick for the quick lager method too. Sounds about right yeah, it doesn't have to be bang on 50%, near enough is good enough in this case. It should be AT LEAST 50% done though, I believe. I've yet to read of a batch turning out worse for producing it quicker than tradition would dictate. I often find the H2S is gone pretty well by the time it reaches FG, so even a week or two of cold conditioning should see it all disappeared. It will disappear in the bottle as well, though.

 

That red ale is proving to be a popular experiment among the forum since I posted it. Lusty's version has turned out very well which is excellent to hear; from his description of the flavours, it sounds pretty much the same as my original recipe. It is a regular on the brewing schedule, at least over the warmer months anyway, as I find it is a nice change up beer from the usual pale ales I brew. You seem to have a pretty decent handle on things so I am confident your crack at it will also turn out very well.

 

I forgot to reference the trub issues with this batch in my last reply. The step mash is what has contributed to the excess trub, based on observations and past experience of normal mashes not causing it. I have since decided, not just because of that, but also because the process is a total PITA in the urn, to not do it again. Filtering through a stocking, buying a pump etc. are all great ideas, however, this will be the only batch I brew with excess trub - at least from a step mashing point of view.

 

All batches brewed with a standard infusion mash have had little enough kettle trub that it doesn't even reach the tap outlet by the time the cube has been completely filled, thus none ends up in the cube. My aforementioned variation "step mash" is basically a standard infusion mash, at least going on temperature. My observations indicate that doughing in at a temp in the mid 60s doesn't release anywhere near as much of this milky crap from the grains as doughing in around the 35C mark, as is done in a step mash. I thought it may have been the pilsner malt itself causing the issue, however, previous batches brewed with pilsner malt, using a standard infusion mash, have not had this problem.

 

From now on, I'll use that mash schedule on my pilsners - I can't imagine that with the modern malts available today that it would really have a terribly noticeable effect on the finished beer.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

Quick question Otto, as I haven't gone to the dark side of all grain brewing yet, do you have any suggestions for a DME or liquid extract to use in place of the Maris Otter Pale Malt?

 

I have been seeding the idea of buying a 40lt Crown urn with SWMBO, to get into some BIAB no chill brewing.. But will take me a little while to get the green light at this stage :-)

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hm.. that's a good question actually. You could probably go with a normal type of DME and maybe do a mini mash of 500g Munich malt or something, to get a bit more maltiness into it. It may not affect it that much though to simply use malt extract and not worry about it. The bulk of the flavour seems to come from the Caraaroma and the Cascade hops, so I don't know if the base malt has that much influence on it.

[headmaster]

Ok thanks Otto, sounds like a plan. Itching to run an IPA as well. So many beers to explore :-)

[antiphile]

G'day Heady

 

May I just float an idea that will give you a lot more flexibilty for the same money as a 40 litre crown urn ($298 to $340). (Don't get me wrong 'cos I'm sure you will get good results with an electric urn, but IMHO I think your results will be at least as good with other items, for less cost and will be able to be used for 3-vessel AG as well as BIAB.

 

• 
  A 60 or 80 litre stock pot ($140 to $160 for a new Chef Inox aluminium or 2nd hand stainless steel)
  

• 
  3 or 4 ring LPG gas burner ($80 to $90)
  

• 
  40 litre Esky for mash tun ($30 to $40)
  

With similar gear (my esky is 50 litres), I can easily do 23 or 46 litre batches of AG.

 

Just beer for thought.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, take it from me, urns are shit for step mashing.

 

Every method has its advantages and disadvantages I suppose. For me, the simplicity of BIAB and only having to clean one vessel after brewing is a major attraction to it. And also taking up hardly any room in the laundry/garage. I also don't think the quality of the beer is lesser to that of one brewed with a 3 vessel system. The disadvantage of the urn of course has been well documented in this thread, being that it seems to be only suited to single infusion mashing. Obviously the esky mash tun method is more flexible in that regard. And a bigger pot obviously allows bigger batches if needed.

 

The urn could be modded I suppose but I really can't be arsed with that if a mini "2 step mash" is going to produce just as good a beer as a full step mash would. Will find out those results in the coming months though, once both batches are bottled.

 

Anyway, at the end of the day your system obviously has to reflect what you want out of your brewing, and how you want to go about it. You have to weigh up the different methods' pros and cons and decide which one you like the best.

 

All grain is a lot of fun to do though, whichever way you do it.

[headmaster]

Thanks for the suggestions and advice people, yeah I have been thinking about all options, would like the extra power of the ring burner. Can't see myself doing double batches at present, only have a 130ltr bar fridge and seems I can brew enough for myself to enjoy right now with approx 23 litre batches, so maybe a 50ltr pot would be fine for single batches? Big enough to avoid boilovers? Maybe even 40?

 

Already have a good esky, probably 40 litres, have been looking at stockpot options and also ring burners. Have seen the burners at flemington markets in sydney, will check out prices when I'm next there, might just be cheaper than some of the online places.

[antiphile]

Personally, for that situation I'd go 50 litres for the pot. However, bearing in mind it will last a long long time, I'd future-proof it to 60 litres because later on you may want to do larger batches. You'll get a better idea from looking online, but it may only cost an extra $20 for another 10 litre capacity -- however, finally you have to decide what your future might bring.

 

Looking at 23 litre batches, once you add the evaporation boil-off (maybe 5 or 6 litres per hour) and the kettle deadspace to avoid the sediment etc (maybe another 3 or 4 litres), there won't be a lot of capacity to avoid hotbreak boilover. That's why I'd suggest a 50 litre pot.

 

PS. I bought a 60 litre pot, and am kicking myself for not going to 80 litres for another $30.

[antiphile]

Another inexpensive option (possibly as a temporary measure) is this from Ray's Outdoors. I might grab one for myself!

 

I just noticed there's no dimensions on the website. I can't guarantee these are correct, but the info from another forum is:

 

Pot:

39cm height

37.5cm diameter

 

Inner basket:

29.5cm height

31cm diameter (of the inner part), 35cm diameter (outer lip to outer lip)

 

The capacity is left as an exercise for the reader.

[porschemad911]

Another inexpensive option (possibly as a temporary measure) is this from Ray's Outdoors. I might grab one for myself!

For a 43.07418 litre pot that's a bargain! I like the 'cooks various foods' bit too ... probably because I am hungry.

[headmaster]

wow, that's interesting! from another discussion I found on another site, seems to be 40lt approx, a little small but for that price might be worth having one. Looks like these crab cookers are popular in the US for BIAB

[ben 10]

Yes' date=' take it from me, urns are shit for step mashing. [img']lol[/img]

 

 

Pretty sure if you got a little brown pump like you in the other thread and recirculated while stepping the shit-on-element issue would be resolved.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Probably, but before I buy anything, I want to try the same recipe with my modified infusion mash and see how it compares. If there's no discernable difference between the two then I'll just keep brewing it that way. Besides that, I really don't like having the excess shit in there at all, regardless of whether it settles on the element or not.

 

A 40 litre pot is big enough for normal 23-25 litre batches. I've never come close to a boil over with my urn, and I usually get a pretty vigorous boil with it. Granted, the gas burner could produce a more intense boil, but it can also be turned down to control it. The urns are 40 litres and I usually brew 25 litre batches, could probably get it up to 27 if I wanted to, but 25 suits my cubes. I normally start with about 34 litres after squeezing the crap out of the bag.

 

However, I agree that a larger size straight up may be the way to go if you are contemplating brewing bigger batches down the track, as you can still use it for smaller batches. I have no intention of doing that, partly because the fridge wouldn't fit a fermenter that size, and I really don't want to be trying to lift 50 odd litres of beer onto a shelf to bottle it either, so the urn is fine for my situation.

 

Back on to the original topic for a second I had a look in the fridge earlier and the brew has a nice krausen probably about an inch high on it now, so the yeast is working away in there. Will check the SG on Tuesday I think, and if it's around 1020-23, I'll raise the temp on the controller up to 18 or 19 and leave it to come up until FG is reached.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

Well I headed on out to Ray's Outdors (reminds me of Ray's Music Exchange out of the Blues Brothers :-) and bought myself a $49 Wild Country Crab Cooker. They are 38 litres, so probably just big enough for 23ltr batches.

 

The crab basket is pretty sturdy looking, and when in place, the bottom of this sits a good 10cm off the bottom of the pot, which would be good I imagine, for separating the grain from the base. Also good for throwing a tap on it as well.

 

I reckon you could even BIAB with a complete pair of nude razzamatazz nylon stockings (seems to be my favorite all round brewing accessory) by stretching the waist around the crab cage lip, and use the support of the cage to hold it. All you need is to stop the grains heading out the holes, and have some sort of filtering ability I imagine.

 

So looks like I'm on the way to an all grain batch, for a small outlay. Thanks Phil, for that tip about the discount at Rays. Lidcombe store (which is closing down actually, some cheap stuff there) had 4 left when I headed there today.

 

I might even make the first one the Devils Squaw Otto. BTW, a beginners question here, do you add the other grains (specialty/crystal) in the recipe to the mash or steep them separately?

[antiphile]

do you add the other grains (specialty/crystal) in the recipe to the mash or steep them separately?

 

No big boy, whack them all in the bag and do it together.

[headmaster]

Cheers Phil.

 

With a krausen that high Otto, may it not pay to check it a bit earlier? Mine reached this level I think 4 days after pitching the yeast, and the krausen didn't go above 10-15mm. Possibly the AG may have more compounds that would result in a higher krausen I guess than mine, which was a briess pilsen LDME

[Otto Von Blotto]

I was actually thinking about checking it a bit earlier yeah. I may even check it later today after the footy is finished. I had a quick peek into the fridge just before and the krausen is still present. I suppose my experience with the yeast starter taking forever is influencing me a bit. It took a good 30 hours to show any signs of fermentation and was still going 2 days later on a stir plate. From this, I figure it might take a bit longer than the W34/70 to bring the SG down. It's probably not imperative to begin temp rising as soon as it hits that 50% number (or whatever it is in reality), but I will get a quick reading later I think and just see where it's at. Even if it is a little higher I may even just raise the temp anyway because with the cooler weather it will take longer to rise on its own.

 

And yeah, just whack all the grains in together with AG batches. Let us know how you go with it, nice to see someone else having a go at the recipe too, I'm sure it'll turn out great though.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

I decided in the end to take a reading last night after the Dons v Saints (cracking game BTW!) finished, and it was sitting at around 1024ish at 11-12C. Correcting this to 20C it was only 1023 apparently.. so I decided the ramp up was in order. It is now sitting about 16C, still a couple more degrees to rise. I will leave it alone until Sunday arvo again, and take a reading then, and again on Tuesday. If these are the same I'll drop it to 0 degrees and leave it there for the almost two weeks before I bottle it. That will have it bottled at around 3 and a half weeks after pitching yeast if it goes to plan. Much better than waiting 10 fn' weeks!

[antiphile]

Well, Carlotta, it's gonna be a very busy week or so from this Wednesday. Lots and lots of serious bottle washing (they've all had an initial rinse) and sanitising needs to be done. Then 44 litres of the German Pilsner to be bottled, which will free up the big fermenter and fridge and let the Czech Pilsner (about 42 litres) to be brewed and put down. I'm following the results of your Czech Pils with a lot of interest.

 

Then towards the end of next week there's 42 litres of Wee Heavy (Scotch Ale) and 13 litres of the later runnings (which I'm kindly going to label as a 70 shilling Scottish Ale) to be bottled.

 

I know I've mentioned this before but I have fallen in love with the Burton WLP023. Made up a third generation starter and pitched into the Scotch Ale (OG 1.075) about 12:30 am Sunday morning. Today at noon (after 36 hours), took an SG, and it was down to 1.035. I think that's a PB; 5.5% ABV in that time. Should have no probs making an estimated FG of 1.022.

 

Time to check on the WL Czech yeast, I suppose.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I was quite surprised that a lager yeast fermenting at 11.3 degrees, which took about 30 hours to show any signs of activity, has brought the SG down by 24 points in about 3 days. Everything I've read about this Urquell yeast claims it to be as slow as a wet week, but aside from the longer lag time than I'm used to, it is working almost as quickly as an ale yeast.

 

Sounds busy indeed. I will be most interested to see how your Czech Pils recipe turns out as well. It certainly looks like a tasty recipe on paper!

 

The batch in there fermenting at the moment isn't my preferred recipe; I had to use Magnum for bittering as I didn't have enough Saaz, and the Saaz I did have was a bit old. Also used 1kg of Munich along with about 4.15kg of German Pils malt because it's all I had. All batches from the one brewed most recently will have almost all Bohemian pilsner malt, with a small amount of Munich as well as all Saaz hops, and much fresher ones too!

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey