Bohemian Pilsner

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hi guys,

 

I went down to Craftbrewer on my break today to pick up some things in preparation for brewing a few batches of pilsner over the coming months. I got my brewing salts, except sodium bicarbonate which I'll pick up from Woolies or wherever, found a new brush for cleaning my flasks, picked up the Wyeast 2001 Urquell Lager yeast, which is supposedly the H-strain from the Pilsner Urquell brewery, and also grabbed a sack of Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt.

 

I've been reading about this malt over the last day or two, and it seems there are conflicting opinions on how best to mash it (when aren't there conflicting opinions in homebrewing??). Some people are saying it is slightly undermodified and works best with a step mash or decoction, while others are saying they have had great results from a single infusion mash, and that it isn't under modified.

 

So I don't bloody know, however I will be using a step mash in this recipe anyway. This time though, I will just lift the bag up for each heating step, as I found it struggled to heat it with the false bottom and grain bag sitting on top of the element. Hopefully this will decrease the time taken to heat up for each rest, which will hopefully result in less caramelised shit on the element.

 

Anywho... this is the revised recipe, with mineral salt additions included. I'm starting with 100% distilled water, which I'm currently producing and storing in a couple of 20L plastic jerrys. I also have a set of scales that measure to 0.001g increments for measuring the salt additions.

 

Strike volume 36 litres with the following mineral additions:

0.51 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4)

0.41 g Chalk (CaCO3)

0.38 g Baking Soda (NaHCO3)

0.35 g Calcium Chloride (CaCl)

 

BIAB Pilsner Step Mash

5.000 kg Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner (4.0 EBC) 95.1 %

0.250 kg Munich Malt - 10L (23.0 EBC) 4.8 %

0.007 kg Black (Patent) Malt (1300.0 EBC) 0.1%

 

Acid rest: 35C for 5 minutes

Protein rest: heat to 52C, hold 15 minutes

Saccharification 1: heat to 63C, hold 45 minutes

Saccharification 2: heat to 72C, hold 30 minutes

Mash out: heat to 78C, hold 10 minutes

 

Hops

 

90 min boil

 

40.00 g Czech Saaz [3.03 %] - First Wort 90.0 min (14.1 IBUs)

51.00 g Czech Saaz [3.03 %] - Boil 80.0 min (16.1 IBUs)

55.00 g Czech Saaz [3.03 %] - Boil 20.0 min (10.0 IBUs)

 

Wyeast 2001 Urquell Lager yeast (from starter)

 

Batch size 25 litres

 

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 % (4.9% bottled)

Bitterness: 40.1 IBUs

Est Color: 9.2 EBC

 

Looking forward to brewing this one up, which will probably be next Saturday. Just hoping the step mash goes a bit smoother this time.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Forgot to mention the fermentation schedule that will be taking place on this brew. I will be trying out the Brulosopher's quick lager method.

 

Will start fermentation at my usual 11.5C, and when the brew has got to about 50% attenuated (no less than this), I will turn the temp controller up to 19C and let it rise by itself, and leave it at 19 until fermentation has finished. After this I'll drop the controller to 0C, and keep it there for about 1.5/2 weeks, adding gelatin a couple of days before bottling to try and get better clarity in the final beer.

 

I have my other pilsner recipe that I brewed on Good Friday to go in next after the current brew, which I'll also be using this quick lager method on. I'm hoping it turns out as well as everyone who has tried it has said.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Canadian Eh!L]

Hey Otto

Nice looking recipe. I like the attention to detail.

 

About the floor malt. I literally nothing about it. I'll ha to look into it. About your concerns though, if you a worried about it converting on its own maybe you could use a little 2-row to help it along in the mash.

 

If you are looking to do a step mash maybe you could start off with a thicker mash and add boiling water to the urn to speed the step to the next temperature. Or get a 3V system.

 

About the brolosophy lager method. I just put a Duntmunder style lager using this method and must say it work good enough for me. Now that things have settled down in the keg after I forced carbed it I'm pouring pretty clear and deliciously crisp brews.

[antiphile]

It's got heaps and heaps of diastatic power. In fact, even Weyermann say it can be used as 100% of the grain bill. I have no idea why some people in other fora would have concerns.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'd probably go the thicker mash and add boiling water to the urn route if I have to do something other than using the urn to heat it all up each time. No space or desire for a 3V system. Good to hear about the positive outcome with your lagers being brewed with the quick method though, another plus vote for that which is great.

 

That's what I thought too Phil. They may be getting a bit put off by this here poster which mentions that the process of creating this malt results in a slightly undermodified malt. With this, they are under the impression that it needs a decoction or step mash to be able to be used properly. If floor malting produces a slightly undermodified malt, it certainly hasn't hindered my brewing when I've used Maris Otter; the one I get is also floor malted, and I only ever use a single infusion mash with that, and never had an issue.

 

All in all I'm not too worried about it, I can do step mashing so either way it's not going to be an issue. Interestingly, I got a better efficiency than usual when I did my step mash on the last pilsner brew day.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Gonna be brewing the aforementioned recipe on Saturday.

 

Also on Saturday, I'm planning to pitch the yeast into the first batch of Pilsner I brewed on Good Friday, as I'm having a mate around for brew day so I'm figuring the beers will be consumed more quickly than usual, giving me space in the cupboard for a new batch, earlier.

 

I made a starter yesterday (4L) being sure to overbuild the starter in order to harvest approx. 800mL of the mixed up slurry into a mason jar. I mixed up the DME and water in the flask during my break from work, first time the 5L flask has made an appearance for a while too, boiled it on the stove for a few minutes as per my usual method, put some foil over the top, boiled it again for 20 secs or so to get plenty of steam onto the foil, then left it alone to "no-chill" while I went back to work.

 

At the same time I also removed the Wyeast 2001 Urquell Lager yeast from the fridge, broke the inner nutrient pack and left it sitting on the bench. It had swelled up by the time I got home, though not as much as ale strains I've used. It was definitely active though. Anyway, I pitched it into the starter about 10pm, and whacked it on the stir plate.

 

It is showing small signs of activity, but nothing drastic as yet. There are bubbles rising from it though, so something is happening in there. The liquid isn't terribly opaque yet, though more than it was last night when I pitched it, but I have read reviews of 2001 being a bit of a slow starter (pardon the pun), and/or slow fermenter, so I am thinking I'll leave this one on the stir plate for a full two days. I might turn up the speed on it too to try and get more oxygen into it. I may not be able to pitch it on Saturday as planned, but it will be ready to go at least by early next week.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Quick update:

 

As I suspected I was half worrying about nothing with this starter. It is showing much better signs of activity now. Plenty of bubbles, the mixture is very opaque now as well. Plenty of condensation on the inside of the flask too. All looking good! I'll leave it on the stirrer til bed time tonight, then switch it off and leave it until Saturday, before stirring it up again and harvesting a portion, and sticking the rest in the fridge to crash with plans to pitch into the batch Monday.

[antiphile]

I only just finalised the Czech Pils recipe 2 days ago (unless I can't help making another tweak or two ). It should be done in about a week or so.

 

Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Batch Size (fermenter): 40.00 l

Estimated OG: 1.050 SG

Estimated Color: 7.8 EBC

Estimated IBU: 39.7 IBUs

Boil Time: 90 Minutes

 

Ingredients:

------------

Amt Name %/IBU

8.00 kg Pilsner (3.0 EBC) 82.5 %

0.75 kg Vienna Malt (6.9 EBC) 7.7 %

0.50 kg Carahell (25.0 EBC) 5.2 %

0.45 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) 4.6 %

100.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min 23.3 IBUs

75.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 30.0 min 13.4 IBUs

35.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min 3.0 IBUs

35.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs

Yeast: Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802)

 

Decoction again just for the fun of it.

 

Edit added 2:30 pm. Some moron needs to learn how to spell the name of that country, so I've corrected it!

[Otto Von Blotto]

That looks like a really nice recipe too mate! Will be keen to hear how it turns out, also interested to see what you think of the Budvar yeast as I would like to try it out as well, after I get a few uses out of this Urquell strain anyway.

 

I'm going to experiment with moving the 20 minute hop addition on my recipe down to 10, or 5 or just flameout, and see what I like the best. The FWH and bittering additions will remain most likely, unless a tweak is necessary to maintain the IBUs. I based my schedule on Pilsner Urquell, but if the no-chilling affects that 20 minute addition it might be better to add it later, so it is actually more like a 20 minute addition. I'm certainly not complaining about having to brew a few batches of pilsner in the name of experimentation though.

[Beerlust]

Hi Kelsey.

 

I've been following this thread of yours along with a lot of the conversation to do with no-chilling from those that use the technique here on the forum. I was taken back just a little by some comments PB2 made over in keirank's "brew in a bag" thread in retort to some comments you had made regarding no-chilling.

 

I remember when I was first told about DMS, what it was, how it presents, & what causes it etc.. Among what I read & what was explained to me is that (in part) the cooling of the wort & how quickly that is done impacts on how DMS related flavours can impart into your wort. I realize you are already aware of much of this information, so let's move on to the more interesting part...

 

Also notated in what I have read & had explained is that DMS influenced flavours are less noticeable in most ale brews, probably due to more intense yeast, malt & hop related influences (that can mask this off flavour), than what can appear & be present in a lighter malted, lager brewed, less influenced beers flavour-wise.

 

Based on the comments PB2 made in the a fore mentioned thread & a few undertones I felt might have been inferred, I went in search of some further reference points & views relating to no-chilling, DMS, & in conjunction with Pilsner style beers.

 

I rate everything I've ever read by Mr. Wizard over on BYO magazine & for sometime now take it as gospel. Whoever he or she is, they really know their stuff. Respectfully, PB2 is our "Mr. Wizard" here on the Coopers forum & I for one am very grateful & have learned a hell of a lot from his postings here on the forum.

 

For those newer to the forum, PB2 is still (I think) a direct link to the Coopers commercial brewery & has been (most likely still is) directly involved with developing recipes through the Coopers home brew range.

 

I admit I'm not certain of his full capacity these days. That said, I still take his word on anything homebrew related as gospel on this forum. As should you.

 

I'll nail him on something someday though!

 

Here's a link to Mr. Wizard's view on No-Chilling (scroll down).

 

You look like you are going to a lot of effort for this brew with water treatment, long yeast prep etc. so all I'm suggesting is that you at least consider looking into no-chilling this particular brew a little further before going down that path. As a start, perhaps ask around & see if anyone else has had sub-standard results by no-chilling a Pilsner brew.

 

It would be a shame if it turned out anything less than what you are hoping for.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Lusty.

[ben 10]

Here's a link to Mr. Wizard's view on No-Chilling (scroll down).

 

.

 

I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the no-chill method I would make do' date=' but neither one of us is stranded on an island.[/quote']

 

This line alone would leave me to disregard ANYTHING Wizzo says.

It is real and it works. To run it down on the say so of one line of some random person without actually trying it yourself does you no favours.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I have read things about no-chilling potentially causing DMS production in the cube because the vapor has nowhere to go. While admittedly I mainly brew ales where like you say it probably isn't noticed with all the hops and whatever, the batches of lager I have previously brewed were also no-chilled, and I couldn't detect any cooked corn or any other weird flavours in there that shouldn't have been. They all tasted perfectly fine to me and everyone else who tried them. They were the wedding brews in fact. I'd imagine an off flavour like that would be pretty obvious in a lowly hopped lager brew, even for someone who isn't a beer nerd. This makes me pretty confident that it won't be a problem in these pilsner batches either, which are hoppier brews than those German lagers I was doing and from what I can gather, the yeast has slightly more influence over the final flavour as well.

 

In saying that, it isn't something I totally ignored when I decided to go down the no-chill route, I just figured I would cross that bridge when I came to it, if I ended up finding the beers were exhibiting weird flavours associated with DMS. Not one of my brews has so far, so I have no concern about it at this point. If it started happening, and regularly, then I would look into alternative methods for chilling the wort. I've also never had an infected cube and I think that is something that is pretty unlikely to happen. It seems to me that if a majority of people no-chilling were having negative issues like that, it wouldn't be considered a viable method at all, and would have disappeared into the history books.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

Here's a link to Mr. Wizard's view on No-Chilling (scroll down).

 

.

 

I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the no-chill method I would make do' date=' but neither one of us is stranded on an island.[/quote']

 

This line alone would leave me to disregard ANYTHING Wizzo says.

It is real and it works. To run it down on the say so of one line of some random person without actually trying it yourself does you no favours.

Ignorance is bliss. I admit I've been stupid enough to follow that thought process more than once or twice. More often though it bites you in the backside.

 

I'm just putting the information out there.

 

The Otto Man will ultimately decide on what the best route is to take for his brew.

 

Doubt the advice of Mr. Wizard at your own peril I say.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's another one of those debates I think. There are people on both sides who are adamant that they are right.

 

I can only speak from my own personal experience, and in my case so far, no-chilling causing problems with DMS off flavours is certainly a myth. The fact that nobody else seems to be having this issue either, says to me that the theory is not reflecting what's actually happening in practice. Even on this forum there are a number of people no-chilling, and not once has there been a complaint about DMS related flavours in the finished beer, that I can recall anyway.

 

There seems to be a correlation between not separating the cold break and having DMS issues. The theory is that rapid chilling separates the cold break and no-chilling doesn't, which is definitely a myth. Cold break happens when the wort gets cold, regardless of how long it takes. It can still be separated from the wort in a no-chill situation. If the cold break is where the DMS is, then as long as it is separated from the wort, there should be no problem, yes? Perhaps, this is why nobody seems to have any DMS issues when no-chilling their wort.

 

I'm not trying to say that no-chill is the best method ever or anything like that, I'm just trying to decipher the facts from the theories and myths, and also draw on practical experience.

 

I also found this interesting thread regarding hop addition changes for no-chill batches: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1596

[Beerlust]

...There seems to be a correlation between not separating the cold break and having DMS issues. The theory is that rapid chilling separates the cold break and no-chilling doesn't' date=' which is definitely a myth. Cold break happens when the wort gets cold, regardless of how long it takes. It can still be separated from the wort in a no-chill situation. If the cold break is where the DMS is, then as long as it is separated from the wort, there should be no problem, yes? Perhaps, this is why nobody seems to have any DMS issues when no-chilling their wort.[/quote']

That's an interesting observation/possible fact from my personal brewing standpoint if in fact it is true. I'll be honest, I do not experience cold break at all with my extract/partial brewing practices. I'd suggest that is restricted to All-Grain brewing & relative practices.

 

Perhaps that's why DMS doesn't present in any way with my beers.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

You're also not putting the hot wort into a cube either, so that part is negated in your situation. Perhaps also you don't have enough wort from the partial mash for it to really present an issue either, and if you are doing a full length boil, it probably all boils off anyway because there's less to begin with. It would seem odd that you wouldn't get cold break from doing a mash and subsequent boil, maybe because it's a smaller amount, it's not really noticeable as cold break.

 

I've been googling around a number of threads about this topic, and just about everybody on them is having no problems at all with DMS being an issue in no-chilled batches. This obviously reflects my own experience as well. The consensus seems to be that if you do a full length boil (i.e. a decent rolling boil) then it should pretty well boil off all the pre-cursors to DMS before it even gets into the cube. This may be the reason nobody seems to be having any issues with it. A 90 minute boil is recommended for batches with majority or 100% pilsner malt as it apparently contains more of these pre-cursors, and I've always followed that procedure whenever I've brewed batches with pils malt.

[Hairy]

I prefer people's experiences to theories in books. As Kelsey stated, many people use the no chill method and can't detect DMS. Or perhaps there is a small DMS development in the cube but it is below a perceptible level.

 

I have no chilled wort made with Pilsner malt with no DMS issues. I have also done this with only 60 minute boils on occasion

[Otto Von Blotto]

I would like to clarify that I'm not saying the Wiz is inherently wrong about this issue, or that it will never happen in any no-chilled batch of wort ever brewed.

 

All I'm saying is, my experience, and the experience of from what I can tell, the overwhelming majority of home brewers using this technique, doesn't reflect the theory. It could be that it isn't happening, it could be as Hairy points out that it isn't at a level perceptible, but either way, I'm more than happy to continue doing it.

 

It's almost like a big unintentional scientific experiment, where the theory is the hypothesis and everyone's collective experience is the testing, and in this case it appears the testing doesn't support the hypothesis.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

It's almost like a big unintentional scientific experiment' date=' where the theory is the hypothesis and everyone's collective experience is the testing, and in this case it appears the testing doesn't support the hypothesis. [img']tongue[/img]

I actually got off at the last stop. Being a bus driver yourself, I'm sure you can relate.

 

The points I highlighted, were never meant to destabilize your brewing position, just give you some alternative theories of thought to hopefully help you make the "best beer ever" (a quote Scottie has made famous on this forum).

 

I personally gain nothing from your failure, only good things from your success.

 

Good luck with the brew.

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I absolutely get where you're coming from mate, and I'm not trying to put that down either. I just don't think this DMS no-chill issue is the big deal that it is made out to be by some parties. I've done 30 odd batches this way and never noticed it in one of them. Of course it could happen, but to state that it will happen and will be noticeable when it appears they haven't even actually tried the method, and are seemingly unaware of everyone else's real world experience of it not happening, strikes me as a bit ridiculous to be honest. Theory is one thing, but if the practical experience doesn't reflect the theory, then the validity of it has to be questioned.

 

Anyway, back on to the recipe itself I switched off the stir plate last night and will be leaving the flask to sit until some time tomorrow during the brew day when I'll stir it all up again in order to harvest some. Then it will be put into the brew fridge, which I turned on yesterday to chill all the bottles that are in it. Should be able to pitch into the batch on Monday which will get that one underway.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

So the first batch of Pilsner is in the FV and the yeast is pitched.

 

And there's a bloody great big layer of shit on the bottom of it, way higher than the tap level at this stage, but I'm hoping it settles down in time. This was mostly kettle trub, as I just dumped the whole urn into the cube in order to actually fill it up. Obviously a by-product of the step mash, and another reason I won't be doing it again. Unfortunately, it was unavoidable as picking up the cube stirred most of it up, and I've given away putting taps on cubes after one got kicked out and spilt wort everywhere one day. So, I have to pick up the cubes and tip them in. I probably got about 6 litres of wort in the FV before all the shit started coming through... maybe it would have been better just to tip it down the sink instead!

 

The batch I brewed on Saturday I stopped transferring before the stuff started to get dragged through the tap, so there is a lot less of it in that cube.

 

It will make bottling day a bit interesting. I may have to siphon this one rather than use the tap, otherwise I'm gonna end up with a whole heap of kettle trub in my bottles.

 

Oh well we live and learn I suppose, at least I will get SOME beer out of it by the end of the process!

 

I'm actually glad that this is the batch that I had to sub Magnum hops in for bittering, rather than a full Saaz hopped batch. I'm expecting the version with full Saaz to be a bit more authentic.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

And there's a bloody great big layer of shit on the bottom of it' date=' way higher than the tap level at this stage...Unfortunately, it was unavoidable as picking up the cube stirred most of it up, and I've given away putting taps on cubes after one got kicked out and spilt wort everywhere one day. So, I have to pick up the cubes and tip them in. I probably got about 6 litres of wort in the FV before all the shit started coming through...[/quote']

Maybe time to invest in a small electric pump?

 

You could even attach a micron filter to it. That way it becomes a sort of '2 for the price of 1'.

 

Apart from clearing the beer on transfer, it will also help you overcome your newly acquired gelatin fettish!

 

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[antiphile]

G'day Rotter the Blotter

 

It's a bit of a PITA (IMHO) when too much garbage from the bottom of the kettle gets into the fermenter. I've had the same problem when I've either forgotten to set the pickup arm or set it too low in the wort. A while ago I tried to nut out a solution, but must have got distracted by a shiny bauble or a pretty coloured light or some such thing. I did get so far as to build a model to help me think thru the design though (and I bet you can't understand why I'm not a professional model builder! ).

 

Imagine the bamboo shewer is 0.5 or 0.375 inch (ID) copper pipe. The blue legs (tripod) are only for stability. I still haven't figured out a good way to attach the tripod so it's easily and quickly height adjustable, so more brain activity is required there. Then it should be a simple matter of siphoning the wort into the fermenter or cube or whatever. At least that's the general idea.

 

 

Of course, anyone with an IQ above a single figure would just buy one, but that's too clever for me.

 

Edit added: Now that I've written it down, maybe the height can be adjusted with a steel or copper collar and a grub screw.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Maybe time to invest in a small electric pump?

 

You could even attach a micron filter to it. That way it becomes a sort of '2 for the price of 1'.

 

Apart from clearing the beer on transfer' date=' it will also help you overcome your newly acquired gelatin fettish! [img']tongue[/img]

 

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

 

It might be useful but I can't justify spending money on special equipment just for one isolated batch of beer. Especially when I've decided to forgo step mashing in the urn on all future batches, which is what caused it in the first place. Most of my beers don't end up with much trub in the cube, as there isn't as much in the urn to begin with when doing a standard infusion mash, so I can fill the cube before the kettle trub even starts being sucked into the tap outlet not getting any in the cube. What is in the cube is the cold break. Even the last batch (pale ale with Northern Brewer hops), I tipped the whole cube in trub and all and it settled below the tap, so no problems there.

 

As for the gelatine, the NB pale ale was fined with it, and I just put the first bottle in the fridge earlier so I will pour that on Sunday, and see how it went.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Just had a look at this brew after I got home from work. The layer of crap has settled to just about midway down the tap outlet hole in the FV at the moment. I might even put something under the front of the FV tomorrow to encourage the stuff to settle away from the tap. No real fermentation action going on as yet, but it's only been about 7 hours since pitching, and if the starter is anything to go by, it will take a bit of time to show signs. The temperature at pitching was about 18C but it was down to around 13 about three hours later, so should be no issues with high starting temps there.

 

I'm hoping the trub settles further when it undergoes its 2 weeks of cold conditioning, but we'll see.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey