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Yet another lager question, John Palmer's 'How to brew' suggests that lagering temp should be 10°F below fermentation temps.

 

If fermenting at 12c that would result in a lagering temp of about 5c? I have more often seen lagering temps being discussed as around 1c to 0c. I have also seen advice to start lagering at around 5c for a week or two, then lower to near 0c to finish.

 

What is the consensus here?

 

 

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One other question I have' date=' the hydogen sulfide rotten egg gas smell I have read about when brewing with lager yeasts is not there at all to date, it smells sweet as. Should I expect this smell at these brewing temps I'm using of 11-12 deg c? [/quote']

 

Good afternoon Headmaster

 

Since I've never been know for my brevity, I wouldn't want to dissapoint you. I'll quote some answers from one of my favourite books The Home Brewers Answer Book.

Q: My fermenting lager smells like sulfur. Will it

affect the taste of my beer?

 

Welcome to the wonderful and often smelly world

of lager brewing! The lore of lager brewing is steeped

in glorious tales of storing large wooden barrels of beer in

deep earthen cellars to slowly mature, patiently awaiting

consumption. These stories may be romantic, and for the

most part true, but the plain fact is that lager beers usually

have a strong sulfur stench that only mellows with time.

Like ale yeasts, many different lager strains exist, and they

each have their own character. It is safe to say, however,

that most lager yeast strains produce more sulfur aromas

compared with ale yeast. These stinky smells usually begin

to blossom after the first 2 or 3 days of fermentation and

slowly mellow from that point.

Unlike some beer flavors, such as the buttery diacetyl and

the green applelike acetaldehyde, that mellow with time due

to their uptake by yeast, sulfur aromas escape from the beer

and pass into the atmosphere. This trait is why commercial

breweries do not lager in a sealed container. Instead, they

age lagers in aptly named lager vessels fitted with some type

of constant pressure valve. These devices allow the brewer

to carbonate the lager naturally by trapping a certain top

pressure of carbon dioxide produced from fermentation,

usually about 15 psi, and letting the excess carbon dioxide

escape. The ability for the excess pressure to escape is

critical because the vented carbon dioxide carries with it

the volatile sulfur compounds produced during primary

fermentation. In time, the sulfur smells will drop to an

acceptable level.

Subtle sulfur aromas are a crucial part of the aroma profile

of a good lager. Some factors that affect the amount

and type of sulfur aromas. Pitching rate and wort original

gravity play important roles in the amount of sulfur

compounds produced during fermentation. Usually, lower

pitching rates and/or high original gravity worts will produce

more sulfur aromas.

Yeast nutrient levels also influence sulfur levels. Worts

that are low in sulfur-containing amino acids, such as

methionine, typically produce more sulfury aromas during

fermentation. Nutrient-deficient worts are not normally

encountered when brewing all-malt beers, but they are

typically found when high percentages of nutrient-devoid

adjuncts, such as rice and corn, are used. To combat this

problem, many large-scale brewers add proprietary yeast

nutrient blends to their fermentations.

When brewing lagers, a detectable amount of sulfur aromas

will always be produced during fermentation. The key

to controlling it is patience. If you are patient and the beer

still smells too sulfury, then begin looking at other factors

such as yeast strain, pitching rate, original gravity, and

adjunct usage.

 

Hmmm. Maybe the response isn't as long as my usual. So lets add another.

 

Yet another lager question, John Palmer's ‘How to brew’ suggests that lagering temp should be 10°F below fermentation temps.

 

If fermenting at 12c that would result in a lagering temp of about 5c? I have more often seen lagering temps being discussed as around 1c to 0c. I have also seen advice to start lagering at around 5c for a week or two, then lower to near 0c to finish.

 

What is the consensus here?

 

I don't think there has ever been or ever will be a concensus on this one. It's more likely there'll be a concensus between Malcolm Turnbull and Tony Abbott on a republic.

 

 

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Thankyou guys for this,

 

Magnaman, I have had that saflager pdf on my desk at work for a while, and completely forgot about the recommended range, I just remembered the outside range went down to 9c and not recommended range of 12to15c. I will bump back up from 11 to 12 when I get home I think. I'm probably splitting hairs anyway, but from my previous measurements it looks like in my brewfridge with the air circ fan running there was 1 to 1.5c difference between top to middle and bottom to middle of FV. So if 11 at middle could be as cool as 9c at bottom, and that's where this bottom fermenting yeast cake is working.

 

Antiphil, thanks for that, by the looks of things I should still expect some fart type aromas. I'm almost wanting to smell them now. I once read that homebrew is like a fart, only the creator can appreciate the flavour.

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I dunno, I ferment mine at 11.5C with no problems, complete with rotten egg smell. Most of my lagers have reached an FG of somewhere around 1007-1008, however, I'm doing AG batches and I can influence this by the temperature of the mash. I don't use any dex either, just malted barley. Lager yeasts also ferment out more thoroughly than ale yeasts. It's impossible to know the mash conditions of producing malt extract though. I'd hazard a guess at the FG being around that 1010-1012 mark though, perhaps slightly lower. If you raise your temp up to 16 when it gets to about 1019-20, and leave it to naturally come up on its own, you should be pretty right.

 

As for lagering temps, it looks like there's conflicting views on it (like everything else in brewing!). Personally I don't bother ramping too much, I do my D-rest, leave it at that temp until it finishes, then leave it another day or two and then drop it by 2C per day until I'm down to about 8, then dump it to zero for its 5 weeks of lagering. They've all come out perfectly fine using this method.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

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Hi guys.

I'm probably splitting hairs anyway' date=' but from my previous measurements it looks like in my brewfridge with the air circ fan running there was 1 to 1.5c difference between top to middle and bottom to middle of FV. So if 11 at middle could be as cool as 9c at bottom, and that's where this bottom fermenting yeast cake is working.[/quote']

Excuse my ignorance here, but is this even possible? unsure

 

With a vessel of 20+ litres holding a liquid source of similar volume, how is it possible that there be different temperatures throughout that liquid volume within an insulated, refrigerated environment & with the addition of a circulating fan?

 

If the temp probe is insulated from the ambient temperatures surrounding the FV, surely the temperature of the liquid inside the FV is consistent throughout?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

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Hi guys.
I'm probably splitting hairs anyway' date=' but from my previous measurements it looks like in my brewfridge with the air circ fan running there was 1 to 1.5c difference between top to middle and bottom to middle of FV. So if 11 at middle could be as cool as 9c at bottom, and that's where this bottom fermenting yeast cake is working.[/quote']

Excuse my ignorance here, but is this even possible? unsure

 

With a vessel of 20+ litres holding a liquid source of similar volume, how is it possible that there be different temperatures throughout that liquid volume within an insulated, refrigerated environment & with the addition of a circulating fan?

 

If the temp probe is insulated from the ambient temperatures surrounding the FV, surely the temperature of the liquid inside the FV is consistent throughout?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

I'm with you, lusty. I Don't think it is possible.

 

BTW, you're up late aren't you?

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Not necessarily.

 

Even if there is a circ fan running which may keep the ambient consistent throughout the fridge, the liquid could and probably does behave differently. The colder liquid could circulate itself to the bottom of the FV leaving the warmer liquid at the top. I hope the circ fan is on the floor though, if it's up the top I can only guess that it would be blowing the cold air down, where it would end up anyway, thus doing nothing to help air circ, and would explain the difference in temperature as well.

 

In saying that though, 9C isn't really the problem you think it is. The yeast will still work at this temperature. But if you're concerned, bump it up to 12C. Then you're getting 10C minimum if that's what's happening, and there's no problems with that. I've heard lager yeast can work down to temperatures of about 4 or 5C.

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G'day Lusty and our 'armless CanCanMan

 

I'm with OtBlot on this one; let me explain. IIRC, headmaster installed a 12V fan designed for a computer case in a medium sized bar fridge. This will certainly help to reduce any discrepancy in the temps top and bottom, but the fan's capacity to push sufficient volumes of air will not allow it to eliminate them. In my mind, there will still be a pool of denser cold air at the base.

 

Compare that to a commercial drinks fridge (that costs thousands) with 4 or 5 high capacity fans to circulate the air evenly top to bottom.

 

Over the height of the fermenter, there should be more heat loss at the bottom compared to the top, and slow circulation currents within the liquid (at such low temperatures) won't be sufficient to allow the liquid temp to equalise throughout. If there was a higher capacity fan at the bottom or a dozen PC case fans, it would get very close to equalising, but in my (tiny) mind that would be overkill even if there were enough room.

 

Cheers

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So if 11 at middle could be as cool as 9c at bottom' date=' and that's where this bottom fermenting yeast cake is working.[/quote'] Regardless of the strain, the active yeast in suspension works throughout the brew, with convection helping to evenly distribute the population.wink
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Thanks for that PB2, I wasn't so sure, just guessing that a so called bottom fermenting yeast meant that it was primarily active at the bottom.

 

Regarding the temp difference, I put the results of an experiment in an earlier post of mine with the fan off and the fan on, with a good digital thermometer with probe (not the controller temp probe but another one that is from a very accurate unit with historical high low recording alarms etc)

 

With fan off the difference from middle to top of the coopers FV in my 130ltr bar fridge was from memory 3 to 3.5degC and almost the same from middle to bottom. About 6 degC difference without the fan. With fan was only about 2 to 2.5 deg top to bottom.

 

Regarding the liquid temps, unless the action of the yeast fermenting is able to stir the liquid enough to be mixing it from top to bottom and vice versa, I think there will be temperature differences from top to bottom. Just like the warm layer of water on top of a swimming pool that has not been disturbed, or a lake on a quiet day etc.

 

I don't know for sure however, to prove this I would need to put the probe into the fermenting wort. My point in the other post was that a 12V cooling fan or other small fan is probably a good idea, even in a small fridge.

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By the way, still no rotten egg smell, 1cm of very clean krausen, no scum rings evident.

 

Otto, many thanks for the info regarding the expected FG using malt only (no dex) with lager yeast.

 

I guess if I can achieve the same 1007 1008, I will have done a reasonable job of yeast pitching and aeration of wort. As mentioned before I used saflager w30/74 11.5G (sachet 1 year old) and kit yeast 7g, hydrated in 200g boiled cooled aerated (shaken) water, let sit for 30mins, then stirred it by hand for a while, pitched about another 30 mins after that, it had started bubbling by itself, no sugar fed to it.

 

Do you remember what yeast you were using Otto?

 

Has anyone fermented a lager and it didn't smell of H2S??

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Has anyone fermented a lager and it didn't smell of H2S??

I also fermented a lager with W34/70 without a sulfur smell. I pitched two packets of rehydrated yeast and fermented cold.

 

Same with S-189.

 

Perhaps I was just lucky.

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I used W34/70 + kit yeast in the last Nelson Sauvin TC Pilsner I made & no sulphur/eggy smell either.

 

I have enough of that (self created) a fair percentage of the time here, so this was a good thing at the time of fermenting! wink

 

I think maybe I'm "Lactose Intolerant" but refuse to accept this position. whistling

 

I've said more than I meant to.

 

biggrin

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

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Got home today, day 5 of the brew, and sure enough I've got the sulphur/egg smell. Gravity down to 1023 and krausen collapsed from 10mm to about 1mm. The gravity sample tasted great last night but pretty ordinary tonight with the hydrogen sulphide gas. added 10g saaz dry hop in stocking with fishing line tether. will wind up to 16c in the morning for diacetyl rest.

 

 

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For reference for anyone else considering using dry yeast for a lager with a relatively cold pitching temp, in this case 11.5g Saflager W34/70 and 7g kit coopers kit lager yeast pitched at 16°C, brewed at 12°C, (yeast hydrated carefully at 23°C in 200ml cooled boiled water, shaken to aerate and hand stirred) things seem to be going to schedule.

 

75% attenuated at day 6, gravity 1017, which to my untrained eye for a lager might be even faster than expected? Temp increased to 16C on this day.

 

Day 8 (last night) gravity was 1011, from OG of 1047, (23 litres, 1.5kg LDME and 1.7kg Euro lager can)

 

Eggy aroma now starting to dissipate, gravity sample less gassy and starting to taste better again, less yeast in suspension.

 

Does this timeline at these temps indicate that pitching my 18.5g of dry yeast was indeed sufficient?

 

 

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Yeah, sounds like it's all going pretty well for you mate. I have the means to make yeast starters, so I always do this with lagers, and will be for ales again now that I've seen a better method of harvesting yeast. Anyway, mine usually follow a similar timeframe. I was rather surprised when I did my first one that the gravity dropped so fast. I was expecting about a two week wait. I think I left it another week anyway just to be sure, and then dropped the temp down to lager it for 5 weeks.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

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Thank you guys for the info.

 

Have just left it at 16°c since that last gravity reading a few days ago, similar to what you did there Otto. Have got a whole batch of my APA to drink so in no great hurry to finish the lager.

 

So I will measure gravity tonight, I'm expecting 1007-1009, maybe measure again tomorrow night, then begin lagering. Last time I left the probe behind the styrofoam and the fridge ran flat out bring the temp down, but this time I'll run it in the air and see the difference that makes to the temperature reduction time. Might do it in a couple of steps as well as that seems to be somewhat common practice.

 

Next time I might give the http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ a go. Seems it actually works from what I have read. But I wanted to try the traditional method so I have something to compare it with.

 

I tried my cascade hopped APA during the week, slightly undercarbonated at only 9 days in bottle on tuesday, but it was as I had hoped. My goal when I started back into home brewing this year, was to make a beer that did not taste like home brew, one that I would be proud to share. I've already done this with my second brew! It was bloody great! White, creamy head, no 'homebrew' smell or taste, smooth and aromatic. Will only get better with a bit of bottle age. Thanks for all the assistance guys.

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You'll find the air temp will drop a lot faster than the liquid temp will. It'll probably rise quicker too on account of 23 litres of relatively warm liquid being in there. As the liquid temp drops of course the temp rise will slow. I've done both methods for cold crashing/lagering and they both work well.

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