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DO WE REALLY NEED TO D REST LAGERS WITH TODAYS YEAST?


Uhtred Of Beddanburg

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Don't get me wrong it would probably still be in the fermenter for the same amount of time regardless its not about time. 

When I use slurry I continually finish a beer by the 4 days cool pitched Lager at 11 or 12 degrees. Depending which thermometer I believe. 

So now I am raising a beer that's from experience is finished in 4 days from 14 to 18 degrees. Raised from 12 to 14 yesterday on day 3 as krausen dropping. 

Grain and grape draught FWK pitched with dubbya slurry at 1pm Tuesday on 12 degrees Temperature corrected OG:1.044.  Today 1.004 last time also finished on this with fresh packet yeast. 

Is the Diacel the sulphur smell? Some of my Lagers get and some do not but all come out fine. 

So I guess is going up before down all the time out dated? If I left on 14 degrees until I started cold crash I could have still been fine? 

Just wondering if modern day yeast Is chewing through a beer faster than years ago if all this other stuff is necessary. 

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The yeast you have used W-34/70 has not changed or mutated into a so called modern yeast otherwise it would not be Weihenstephan W-34/70 anymore.  Its still the exact same yeast cells it was 100 years ago.  Maybe different for yeasts newer to the market that have been created/blended with different characteristics.

For my money a D-rest is a must in all my lagers and I tend to do it with Ales as well when time permits.

Edited by iBooz2
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43 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

The yeast you have used W-34/70 has not changed or mutated into a so called modern yeast otherwise it would not be Weihenstephan W-34/70 anymore.  Its still the exact same yeast cells it was 100 years ago.  Maybe different for yeasts newer to the market that have been created/blended with different characteristics.

For my money a D-rest is a must in all my lagers and I tend to do it with Ales as well when time permits.

So even a newer yeast like Diamond you would still do just in case? Finally got myself on 4 packs of diamond the other day.

I now have a dozen or so packs of different lager yeast with 2 re uses each I'm good for a while. 

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6 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

So even a newer yeast like Diamond you would still do just in case? Finally got myself on 4 packs of diamond the other day.

I now have a dozen or so packs of different lager yeast with 2 re uses each I'm good for a while. 

Yep.  I do a Diacetyl-rest at 18°C for all my lagers, including Diamond.  Lallemand's NovaLager might be a different beastie.  However, I would still do a D-rest if brewing with it.

Like @iBooz2, I even give my ales a D-rest.  Usually 2°C above the main fermentation temperature.

Good luck with the Diamond Lager yeast.  It does make nice beers.

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13 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Yep.  I do a Diacetyl-rest at 18°C for all my lagers, including Diamond.  Lallemand's NovaLager might be a different beastie.  However, I would still do a D-rest if brewing with it.

Like @iBooz2, I even give my ales a D-rest.  Usually 2°C above the main fermentation temperature.

Good luck with the Diamond Lager yeast.  It does make nice beers.

Ok thanks for the advice I haven't tried any NovaLager yet. I assume it's like California Lager which is to me nice but not as good as a true Lager strain. 

I have tried Diamond a few times before with coopers Tins. I don't think have with FWK yet so can't wait for results it's a nice yeast.

Also isn't the diacel about pilsner malt?  Just wondering if a pale lager with pale ale malt would be fine without a D rest?

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7 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Also isn't the diacel about pilsner malt?  Just wondering if a pale lager with pale ale malt would be fine without a D rest?

Yes, I think you are right.  Although I say I give my ales a Diacetyl-rest, it is probably not true.  I just give them a few days at a slightly higher temperature, to clean up after themselves.

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15 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Yes, I think you are right.  Although I say I give my ales a Diacetyl-rest, it is probably not true.  I just give them a few days at a slightly higher temperature, to clean up after themselves.

yes I have done the same for yeast clean up but am thinking in terms of diacel. I might try a pale lager left at say 14 degrees as the test subject. 

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On 2/11/2023 at 10:03 PM, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Ok thanks for the advice I haven't tried any NovaLager yet. I assume it's like California Lager which is to me nice but not as good as a true Lager strain. 

I have tried Diamond a few times before with coopers Tins. I don't think have with FWK yet so can't wait for results it's a nice yeast.

Also isn't the diacel about pilsner malt?  Just wondering if a pale lager with pale ale malt would be fine without a D rest?

NovaLager is a hybrid yeast. From what I gather, it has a fermentation range from 10-20C, so you can ferment warmer but I'd probably still keep things cool. Maybe 14 or 15. The beers are apparently very low in sulphur and lower in diacetyl but I would still do a d-rest. It does shave a few days of fermentation though. Using Dubbya, I ferment at 13 and ramp it up to 18 when it hits about 1.020. That's usually around day 4. Apparently, NovaLager can reach FG at around that time. I haven't tried it yet but have a few packs on my shopping list. 

Btw, the sulphur smell comes from sulphur in the shape of sulphur dioxide or hydrogen sulphide. The latter causes the rotten egg smell. Diacetyl is a different beast. It causes the buttery taste in beer. Commonly diacetyl is used as a butter flavouring in things like popcorn but is also found in margarine. It is a natural byproduct of yeast activity and the d-rest encourages the yeast to consume it. 

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3 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

NovaLager is a hybrid yeast. From what I gather, it has a fermentation range from 10-20C, so you can ferment warmer but I'd probably still keep things cool. Maybe 14 or 15. The beers are apparently very low in sulphur and lower in diacetyl but I would still do a d-rest. It does shave a few days of fermentation though. Using Dubbya, I ferment at 13 and ramp it up to 18 when it hits about 1.020. That's usually around day 4. Apparently, NovaLager can reach FG at around that time. I haven't tried it yet but have a few packs on my shopping list. 

Btw, the sulphur smell comes from sulphur in the shape of sulphur dioxide or hydrogen sulphide. The latter causes the rotten egg smell. Diacetyl is a different beast. It causes the buttery taste in beer. Commonly diacetyl is used as a butter flavouring in things like popcorn but is also found in margarine. It is a natural byproduct of yeast activity and the d-rest encourages the yeast to consume it. 

Thanks mate I knew about the hybrid yeasts being a bit different in that  regards. Although they make nice beers I prefer more traditional strains and just thought with today's yeast being better maby it was not needed any more. Appreciate all the info everyone has given convincing me to keep doing it.

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My understanding is that diacetyl is produced by ALL yeast during the fermentation process, some yeast will produce more of this biproduct than others so all ferments would benefit from an increase in temp and a diacetyl rest at that higher temp for a few days.  

But if your yeast pitching rate was too low to start with, your yeast are going to be knackered by the end of the high growth phase and they would have run out of reserves to be able to produce the daughter cells that are needed to clean up these biproducts.  So, if you have skimped on your yeast at pitching you are wasting your time trying to do a diacetyl rest.   In other words, don't try to be a hero and only pitch one sachet at a higher temperature just to get the Krausen cracking quicker.

The pitching specifications on the yeast packaging or web sites are there for a reason.  I prefer to slightly over pitch, say if it calls for 1.5 sachets of dry yeast, I always pitch the two.  There are not too many types of dry yeast where you will get away with only one sachet for an average SG 23 L batch.

I have three steps in my fermentation temperature routines.  Pitch low and hold there during the adaptation phase, raise slightly or ramp it up over a few days during the high growth phase and then go higher in temperature for the diacetyl rest (maturation phase).  And if you have got enough healthy yeast cells left for this it works beautifully on all beers.  With darker beers and stouts you may want a little diacetyl there so its horse for courses.

Edited by iBooz2
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On 2/11/2023 at 2:27 PM, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Is the Diacel the sulphur smell? Some of my Lagers get and some do not but all come out fine. 

Late to the thread sorry. But I'm pretty sure sulphur from a lager and diacetyl are two different things.

Diacetyl in lager is described as a nasty butter scotch taste where as sulphur can be normal and will disappear with age.

 

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2 hours ago, Pale Man said:

Late to the thread sorry. But I'm pretty sure sulphur from a lager and diacetyl are two different things.

Diacetyl in lager is described as a nasty butter scotch taste where as sulphur can be normal and will disappear with age.

 

Had both so far @Pale Man PM, butterscotch mellowed a tad but never disappeared completely, the sulphur twas gone after two weeks of conditioning in the keg. Dubbya twas the yeast. Got the butterscotch taste back in the day when I only used 1  x 11g pack dry yeast for a 23 litre brew. 

Edited by Mickep
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On 2/20/2023 at 11:27 AM, Pale Man said:

Late to the thread sorry. But I'm pretty sure sulphur from a lager and diacetyl are two different things.

Diacetyl in lager is described as a nasty butter scotch taste where as sulphur can be normal and will disappear with age.

 

Yes I think I got them both a bit mixed up. I'll keep doing it the usual way I only thought advancement in yeast might not make it necessary. 

Some great replies by all helped me to understand why it is good to keep doing it.

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