Very late whirlfloc addition

[Aussiekraut]

I noticed something interesting last brew day. In both batches, I had the best whirlpool results ever since going AG. A nice mound of break as it should be. How? Well, I forgot to drop the whirlfloc in at the 10 minute mark in the first batch and just popped it in with about a minute of the boil left. Then I gave it a good stir to get a nice whirlpool going and when I filled the wort into the cube, I was very surprised. To see if it was a fluke, I did the same with the 2nd batch and again, nice cone right in the middle of the kettle.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems adding whirlfloc right at the end of the boil seems to produce a better whirlpool result with very clear wort and less break in the cube/fermenter.

 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said:

I noticed something interesting last brew day. In both batches, I had the best whirlpool results ever since going AG. A nice mound of break as it should be. How? Well, I forgot to drop the whirlfloc in at the 10 minute mark in the first batch and just popped it in with about a minute of the boil left. Then I gave it a good stir to get a nice whirlpool going and when I filled the wort into the cube, I was very surprised. To see if it was a fluke, I did the same with the 2nd batch and again, nice cone right in the middle of the kettle.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems adding whirlfloc right at the end of the boil seems to produce a better whirlpool result with very clear wort and less break in the cube/fermenter.

 

 

Interesting.  I add mine anywhere from 10 - 15 minutes left to go in the boil.  Some quick Googling suggests that around 5 minutes is good.  Much more than 10 minutes denatures the ingredients so they will not floc very well.  I will try a 5 minute addition on the next brewday.

[iBooz2]

Yes we discussed this a couple of years back. 

I don't know where the 15 minutes comes from, probably some Muppet entered this number in as the default in the brewing software and everyone else followed suit with their software, all without actually checking the facts.  Now if they had actually read the instructions on the product the default number should have been a lot less.  If it is boiled for longer than 10 minutes (as I said years ago) its a waste of time because it undoes the good do.

Mine go in at 5 minutes and under.  When I say under, if I have a 5 minute hop addition then the hops go in as first priority and then the Whirlfloc so it may end up at around 4 minutes.

Edited January 13, 2023 by iBooz2

[Marty_G]

I forgot and dropped one in after flame out  during the hop whirlpool/stand. Worked a treat.  

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, I usually use brewbrite when I can get it but I always add it with about 7-8 minutes left. Works well. 

[BlackSands]

I have this terrible habit of forgetting to add the floc.  But I have noticed the clarity of the final beer on those occasions hasn't actually suffered at all - it seems a cold-crash and gelatine takes care of everything.  That then leaves me wondering if I even need bother with the whirlfloc?   

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

I have this terrible habit of forgetting to add the floc.  But I have noticed the clarity of the final beer on those occasions hasn't actually suffered at all - it seems a cold-crash and gelatine takes care of everything.  That then leaves me wondering if I even need bother with the whirlfloc?   

Perhaps it depends on the beer and the ingredients in it. I brewed a pilsner a while ago without any kettle finings as I'd forgotten I'd run out and didn't buy more before that brew. It was cloudy out of the urn which wasn't a good sign, and it never cleared up even with isinglass and polyclar, and a couple of months chilled in the keg. The taste wasn't quite right either. In that case not using the finings obviously resulted in the compounds that cause permanent haze not being removed from the wort.

[BlackSands]

22 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Perhaps it depends on the beer and the ingredients in it. I brewed a pilsner a while ago without any kettle finings as I'd forgotten I'd run out and didn't buy more before that brew. It was cloudy out of the urn which wasn't a good sign, and it never cleared up even with isinglass and polyclar, and a couple of months chilled in the keg. The taste wasn't quite right either. In that case not using the finings obviously resulted in the compounds that cause permanent haze not being removed from the wort.

It's hard to know really.  I've done a mix of brews where I've forgotten the whirlfloc... in fact I seem to forget more often that I remember!  In recent memory there's been a couple of NZ Pilsners, an English bitter and a PA where I know kettle fining was overlooked.  They were all however fermented with Voss so maybe that has a part to play as it is a very high flocc strain.  One of the pilsners wasn't 100% clear...   had a very slight chill haze but otherwise it does seem that CC and gelatine appear to be enough on their own... so far anyway.   

And, on a positive note with regard to my failing memory,  with my current NZPA I did actually remember to throw in some whirfloc five minutes out!    

Edited January 28, 2023 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

2278 is pretty flocculant too, but it wasn't yeast or chill haze that was the problem in mine, it was permanent haze due to not removing the hot break properly. 

[RDT2]

11 hours ago, BlackSands said:

It's hard to know really.  I've done a mix of brews where I've forgotten the whirlfloc... in fact I seem to forget more often that I remember!  In recent memory there's been a couple of NZ Pilsners, an English bitter and a PA where I know kettle fining was overlooked.  They were all however fermented with Voss so maybe that has a part to play as it is a very high flocc strain.  One of the pilsners wasn't 100% clear...   had a very slight chill haze but otherwise it does seem that CC and gelatine appear to be enough on their own... so far anyway.   

And, on a positive note with regard to my failing memory,  with my current NZPA I did actually remember to throw in some whirfloc five minutes out!    

Do you chill or no chill?

[BlackSands]

16 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

2278 is pretty flocculant too, but it wasn't yeast or chill haze that was the problem in mine, it was permanent haze due to not removing the hot break properly. 

Curious.  I've never removed the hot break.  And, I know you're not a fan of Brulosophy but I do recall they've done several of their trials now comparing hot break removed vs not removed.  Needless to say their tasters couldn't pick the difference on two occasions, and the one that they did pick the difference they actually preferred the beer WITH trub.  And, one other incidental observation they've made was the beer where the hot break was left in was actually the clearer of the two...  though not in the case of a NEIPA brewed in one of these 'exbeeriments' for obvious reasons.

Either way, I felt adequately vindicated in continuing to not bother with removing hot break or any other 'gunk' and so far it's not been an issue for countless brews in terms of flavour or clarity. 

 

 

 

 

[BlackSands]

11 hours ago, RDT2 said:

Do you chill or no chill?

Sort of.  I brew 20 litre AG on a stove-top and make a concentrated wort of around 10 litres.   This wort is then made up to the final 20 litre volume with cold water - the same as with some concentrated FWK's and of course extract brews.  The 10 litres of cold water does the chilling but the degree of chilling does vary depending on the time of year -  in the cooler months the water is plenty cold enough to get the temp down to a kveik-friendly temperature straight away so I am able to pitch immediately.   In Summer I tend to have to pre-chill for a short time first - I just sit the pot in a tub of cold water for around 15 minutes or so before then pouring into the FV and making up to the final volume.   

This is one of several reasons I like brewing this way and working with Kveik - I get to avoid messing around with wort chillers!

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by BlackSands

[RDT2]

I didn’t put a whirlfloc in a Munich Dunkel once by error and was worried I had stuffed it but it turned out fine. I think I chilled that one though so I wonder if chilling makes a difference. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes I'm aware of brulosophys experiment. All I can say is my experience was the complete opposite, and in line with the consensus of brewing science that removing the hot break is beneficial and prevents permanent haze in the beer. The flavour was dull and muted as well - one of the reasons it lasted as long as it did in the keg, I was somewhat avoiding drinking it There is no doubt a little bit of hot break makes its way into the cube even with using kettle finings, it's unavoidable unless I filter it or whatever, but it's nowhere near as much as just leaving it all floating around in the wort. If it works for you, great, but it was an epic fail for me. 

I have got a couple of useful ideas from brulosophy, the fermentation schedule I use with lagers is one, but most of it deviates from my usual brewing practice, and from what I can tell, to no real advantage or improvement to the beer. Sometimes I wonder if their tasters actually have working tastebuds. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Otto Von Blotto

[ben 10]

I throw it in a whirlpool, then whirlpool.

Works well for me then. 
Pretty sure it produces cclearer beer for me although I have not done a side by side.