Just started brewing, questions for refining the process

[Spursman]

20 hours ago, NBillett09 said:

@Spursmanperhaps a sanitized stainless whisk on a drill in the middle so as not to scratch the sides? Aerate the wort for a minute or two. Do you wait for it to settle before pitching or pitch straight into the vortex?

Yep, sounds like a good idea. It is important  to not scratch the fermenter so I keep my stirrer dead centre. No need to wait for the wort foam to settle - pitch the yeast straight away.  I also very gently whisk in the yeast for 30 seconds or so but your idea of pitching into the vortex would work. Just make sure you do it after withdrawing the stirrer/whisk.

[Classic Brewing Co]

13 minutes ago, Spursman said:

Yep, sounds like a good idea. It is important  to not scratch the fermenter so I keep my stirrer dead centre. No need to wait for the wort foam to settle - pitch the yeast straight away.  I also very gently whisk in the yeast for 30 seconds or so but your idea of pitching into the vortex would work. Just make sure you do it after withdrawing the stirrer/whisk.

I always give the wort a good whirl around before pitching the yeast, I don't believe I have seen documented proof that this helps but I do it anyway.

[Oldbloke]

"Aerate the wort for a minute or two"

 

I'm struggling with this.  First I've heard of it. 

Where did the idea come from? 

Do coopers recommend it?

[Classic Brewing Co]

Just two of many papers on the subject.

https://www.brewcabin.com/wort-aerator/

 

https://byo.com/article/aerating-wort-techniques/

Edited December 23, 2022 by Classic Brewing Co

[Spursman]

1 hour ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Just two of many papers on the subject.

https://www.brewcabin.com/wort-aerator/

 

https://byo.com/article/aerating-wort-techniques/

Not sure if Coopers have ever recommended aeration. However the proof of the method is in the drinking. The articles Phil has highlighted state the case in a very straightforward way.

Nuff said.

[Classic Brewing Co]

2 minutes ago, Spursman said:

Not sure if Coopers have ever recommended aeration. However the proof of the method is in the drinking. The articles Phil has highlighted state the case in a very straightforward way.

Nuff said.

Hi @Spursman Cheers & Merry Xmas, apart from who reckons it's not the way to go, I have been doing it for decades & it gives your newly introduced yeast a chance to really get going in the FV.

There are many topics on this subject & also even in my early days of brewing the LBHS shops & talking to experienced brewers all recommended the practice, I haven't bothered to check on the Coopers DIY site to see if it is mentioned but I can assure you many brewers do it.

I have a couple of mates who own breweries & brew commercially & I have spoken to them about this & they agree it is a good practice.

It will actually produce a cleaner better tasting brew.

Cheers

Phil.

 

[Oldbloke]

Well, my guess is the garden hose method would do similar as I fill it fairly quickly inorder to ensure its all well mixed.  Never done it any other way.

[NBillett09]

I shall give aeration a go for the next brew, I already know what I want to try next.

First batch of ale hit 14 days in the bottle today so I shall be trying some tomorrow with Christmas lunch  

[Spursman]

9 hours ago, NBillett09 said:

I shall give aeration a go for the next brew, I already know what I want to try next.

First batch of ale hit 14 days in the bottle today so I shall be trying some tomorrow with Christmas lunch  

Good luck with the first one. From memory (and it's not as good as it used to be) my first batch tasted a bit "plasticky" but was still very drinkable. At 14 days it will probably be a little bit immature but will steadily improve over time.

Merry Christmas 

[ozdevil]

17 hours ago, Spursman said:

Not sure if Coopers have ever recommended aeration. However the proof of the method is in the drinking. The articles Phil has highlighted state the case in a very straightforward way.

Nuff said.

just because coopers may have never spoke about aerating wort  , it doesn't necessary mean it shouldn't be  done.

the only time you will aerate the wort   is at the start of the fermentation   so that  you get some healthy yeast reproducing

This may not be so  much in extract as  your not always boiling the wort   because when you are boiling wort  the heat is pushing oxygen out of the wort   and when you place that into a fermenter  you need to  get oxygen back into the wort for yeast to reproduce

 

[Tricky Micky]

46 minutes ago, ozdevil said:

just because coopers may have never spoke about aerating wort  , it doesn't necessary mean it shouldn't be  done.

the only time you will aerate the wort   is at the start of the fermentation   so that  you get some healthy yeast reproducing

This may not be so  much in extract as  your not always boiling the wort   because when you are boiling wort  the heat is pushing oxygen out of the wort   and when you place that into a fermenter  you need to  get oxygen back into the wort for yeast to reproduce

 

Hey Oz, mate, is it possible to over aerate the wort and create fusel alcohol when pouring FWK's into the Coopers FV especially from the KL pouches? On top of that then there's the added pre boiled water  addition. Especially if I'm pitching onto previously used yeast cake. I read somewhere that it's possible to over aerate the wort prior to fermentation - just checking if that could account for any of my off flavours recently. Although having said that I've had two extract batches go south as well.

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

15 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Hey Oz, mate, is it possible to over aerate the wort and create fusel alcohol when pouring FWK's into the Coopers FV especially from the KL pouches? On top of that then there's the added pre boiled water  addition. Especially if I'm pitching onto previously used yeast cake. I read somewhere that it's possible to over aerate the wort prior to fermentation - just checking if that could account for any of my off flavours recently. Although having said that I've had two extract batches go south as well.

 

I am yet to try a FWK but all the extract brews I have ever done, I have always stirred the ingredients before reaching the desired water level & temperature for pitching. After I have taken a SG sample, I create a whirlpool & pitch the yeast.

I have never had any issues with this practice, in fact I strongly believe it helps the yeast to get to work & results in a clearer, clean tasting beer with good head retention.

Even if you didn't aerate the wort you will still make beer but that's what I have seen the experts do.

[ozdevil]

23 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Hey Oz, mate, is it possible to over aerate the wort and create fusel alcohol when pouring FWK's into the Coopers FV especially from the KL pouches? On top of that then there's the added pre boiled water  addition. Especially if I'm pitching onto previously used yeast cake. I read somewhere that it's possible to over aerate the wort prior to fermentation - just checking if that could account for any of my off flavours recently. Although having said that I've had two extract batches go south as well.

 

i say that  its time for new yeast mate  ,  you have most likely re-used the same yeast to many times  that the yeast is starting to go off

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Mickep said:

Hey Oz, mate, is it possible to over aerate the wort and create fusel alcohol when pouring FWK's into the Coopers FV especially from the KL pouches? On top of that then there's the added pre boiled water  addition. Especially if I'm pitching onto previously used yeast cake. I read somewhere that it's possible to over aerate the wort prior to fermentation - just checking if that could account for any of my off flavours recently. Although having said that I've had two extract batches go south as well.

 

Hey Mick,

I do not think you can over-aerate your wort (kits, FWK or all grain).

I did read something where it can cause some kind of issues, but not like your brews went. 

I aerate my all grain wort the whole time I am transferring and then some.  So probably 20 minutes at least.  I use an aquarium pump and an aeration stone on the end of stainless steel tube.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

1 hour ago, ozdevil said:

i say that  its time for new yeast mate  ,  you have most likely re-used the same yeast to many times  that the yeast is starting to go off

 

from what he was saying  he had only re -used it a couple of times? Maby the BB date was getting close before the first time he pitched it? I have re used 4 times so far with no issues. 

Collect slurry in jar and clean the FV up never gone straight on top although others often do it with success. Just a bit of bad luck for him or something in the process he missed. I have never had a problem if anything it gets better each re use.

[ozdevil]

4 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

from what he was saying  he had only re -used it a couple of times? Maby the BB date was getting close before the first time he pitched it? I have re used 4 times so far with no issues. 

Collect slurry in jar and clean the FV up never gone straight on top although others often do it with success. Just a bit of bad luck for him or something in the process he missed. I have never had a problem if anything it gets better each re use.

fair point , however though  just because you have used a yeast 4 time no worries  another person might not.

i am not knocking reusing yeast and great people are doing it to save a few bob. 



 

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

3 hours ago, ozdevil said:

fair point , however though  just because you have used a yeast 4 time no worries  another person might not.

i am not knocking reusing yeast and great people are doing it to save a few bob. 



 

Thats correct but from reading most things on here about it more people have success with it than problems. It's not really about saving money for me. It fires up faster reducing the lag time. It tastes better and brew ferments out completely heaps faster.

  Poor old mickep had a bad run and suspects that's the problem but from this forum alone more people have reported success with it than who have problems.

@BlackSands has used the same yeast for 2 years? a couple of times had to use nutrient to keep it going I think he said but massive achievement.

Understand you're point being made but seems to be a success for most people 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Uhtred Of Beddanburg

[NBillett09]

@Uhtred Of Beddanburgjust to clarify for myself, are you talking about using the stuff that looks like mud at the bottom of the FV once it’s emptied in the next brew? I thought it was just some sort of byproduct of the fermentation process, I didn’t realize it was yeast that was useable again! 

[Classic Brewing Co]

14 minutes ago, NBillett09 said:

@Uhtred Of Beddanburgjust to clarify for myself, are you talking about using the stuff that looks like mud at the bottom of the FV once it’s emptied in the next brew? I thought it was just some sort of byproduct of the fermentation process, I didn’t realize it was yeast that was useable again! 

Yep, that is it, it can be retrieved & placed in a clean santised beaker or jar & stored in the fridge for a short while - 2 weeks or a bit longer, as long as it is covered you can use a quantity of it instead of a dried yeas sachet of yeast in your next brew.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

27 minutes ago, NBillett09 said:

@Uhtred Of Beddanburgjust to clarify for myself, are you talking about using the stuff that looks like mud at the bottom of the FV once it’s emptied in the next brew? I thought it was just some sort of byproduct of the fermentation process, I didn’t realize it was yeast that was useable again! 

yes as classic said it can be stored and re- used. only a portion of it is yeast the rest is what's leftover. I have found since brewing FWK there is less leftover and probably more of it is yeast than other gunk

[ozdevil]

10 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Thats correct but from reading most things on here about it more people have success with it than problems. It's not really about saving money for me. It fires up faster reducing the lag time. It tastes better and brew ferments out completely heaps faster.

 

@BlackSands has used the same yeast for 2 years? a couple of times had to use nutrient to keep it going I think he said but massive achievement.

Understand you're point being made but seems to be a success for most people 

i understand your point as well , i don't for one minute think people are not having success doing it  and the reasons why they do it.

i just think sometimes you need to eliminate things  .  thats why i mentioned  maybe its time to use fresh yeast.   he still may get  bad batches  from the fresh as well , which may have me thinking  it could be his equipment that may be the issue rather then the yeast




 

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

On the subject of yeast;

I have just opened a package I received from our good friend Al @iBooz2 & whaddya know - a Magnetic Stirrer!

Wow I was not expecting this, what a generous, thoughtful gesture, thank you AL, much appreciated. 

I know little about these however I have watched the video & done a bit of study so I will get control of it.

I did state earlier that I was never going to re-cycle yeast again, but it does work, I used too much last time so I may get it right now.

The beaker was mine so I imagine I will be getting a few different sizes to further my stocks/knowledge.

If anyone has any input on your experience with these or similar units, it would be appreciated.

This gift shows the true colours of the great members who form part of this wonderful forum who are always willing to pass on their knowledge & help.

Thanks again Al, I am sending you some promo gear soon.

 

https://www.kegland.com.au/compact-adjustable-magnetic-stirrer-machine.html#:~:text=Magnetic Stirrer Machine-,Compact Adjustable Magnetic Stirrer Machine,-Rating%3A

[Shamus O'Sean]

8 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

On the subject of yeast;

I have just opened a package I received from our good friend Al @iBooz2 & whaddya know - a Magnetic Stirrer!

Wow I was not expecting this, what a generous, thoughtful gesture, thank you AL, much appreciated. 

I know little about these however I have watched the video & done a bit of study so I will get control of it.

I did state earlier that I was never going to re-cycle yeast again, but it does work, I used too much last time so I may get it right now.

The beaker was mine so I imagine I will be getting a few different sizes to further my stocks/knowledge.

If anyone has any input on your experience with these or similar units, it would be appreciated.

This gift shows the true colours of the great members who form part of this wonderful forum who are always willing to pass on their knowledge & help.

Thanks again Al, I am sending you some promo gear soon.

 

https://www.kegland.com.au/compact-adjustable-magnetic-stirrer-machine.html#:~:text=Magnetic Stirrer Machine-,Compact Adjustable Magnetic Stirrer Machine,-Rating%3A

You lucky fellow, Phil (and nice work Al).

I have a similar model that also has a useless heating function.  Useless because it heats up the starter high enough to kill the yeast.  This function might be great for other laboratory purposes, but not for yeast starters.  I got the stir plate second hand with a 1 litre and 3 litre flask.  I also bought a 5 litre flask.

I started out using @Otto Von Blotto's method for making an overbuild starter.  That is where you make the starter big enough for the beer you are brewing plus enough extra yeast to harvest and use in the starter for the next brew.

Like a lot of options with brewing, it is a deep rabbit hole and you have to test your desire to expand your brewing experience against laying out cash and the time taken for more steps.  It is much easier to just buy more yeast.  But, I like the process of making starters.

I have moved from Otto's starter volumes to using the Yeast Starter calculator in Brewfather.  This seems to get similar cell counts using less water and less LDM.  Like Otto I overbuild the starter and harvest some for the starter for the next brew.  The Brewers Friends Yeast Calculator on the Kegland page for your stir plate is equally as good as BrewFather.

Although Otto's method sounds like it "lets the starter ferment out too much", this is done on purpose.  His method has the starter on the stir plate for 24 hours, then a rest for 36-48 hours.  The next stage is a re-stir for an hour or so to mix the yeast back in to make it easier to harvest the overbuild volume for the next starter and the pitch volume for the current brew.  Both overbuild volume and pitch volumes are then popped in the fridge to settle out.  Otto's method is called a Viability starter.  The other method, which is basically just the 24 hour stir, is the Vitality method, presumably because the starter is around high krausen after that time and at its most active.  Hence a good time to pitch.  Both are successful ways of doing a starter.  Otto's method seems to be better for overbuilding.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:08 AM, Mickep said:

Hey Oz, mate, is it possible to over aerate the wort and create fusel alcohol when pouring FWK's into the Coopers FV especially from the KL pouches? On top of that then there's the added pre boiled water  addition. Especially if I'm pitching onto previously used yeast cake. I read somewhere that it's possible to over aerate the wort prior to fermentation - just checking if that could account for any of my off flavours recently. Although having said that I've had two extract batches go south as well.

 

No it's not. You'll never introduce enough oxygen by simply pouring wort into a fermenter to even get to the recommended DO levels for pitching, to achieve that it requires pure oxygen. 

In saying that, it doesn't matter that much, it doesn't mean the fermentation won't work or anything like that, just making a point as to how it can't be over oxygenated that way

[Classic Brewing Co]

24 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

You lucky fellow, Phil (and nice work Al).

Cheers Shamus & thanks for your reply & helpful information. I t seems I have a bit of study to do & that will help. I didn't realise it was that involved however I can usually pick things up pretty quickly.

I think small steps at first & see how we go.

It was certainly unexpected & graciously accepted.

Cheers

Phil.