low carbonation

[Classic Brewing Co]

22 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

Cover your eyes, I'm about to write something that might offend some home brew pedants:
I DON'T USE SANITISER ON MY BOTTLES! IT'S NOT NECESSARY.
I put my trust in science and @martyG . A while ago Marty informed me that bacteria will form if there are substrates (crap on the inside of the bottle) for them to stick to.
If the bottles are cleaned there should be no substrates and thus no bacteria. Marty knows science stuff and his advice has proven invaluable to me.
This knowledge has made my bottling process much easier and to this stage has had no negative affect on my beers.
My bottling cleaning process is as follows:
1. ASAP after consumption (usually next morning for me) I rinse the muck out of the bottles.
2. I shake out as much water as possible from the bottles and store them upside down until I need them.
3. A couple of days before bottling day I soak the bottles and lids in a tub of hot water (not boiling because I use PETs) and sodium perc based laundry soaker.
4. The next day I give the bottles a vigorous shaking as I empty them and a rinse of cold water to get rid of any sod perc traces. If I notice any gunk in any of the bottles I'll give them a brushing with a silicon bottle brush I got from Kmart for $2. This is rare though.
5. I then place them inverted on my drying basket (my bottle tree substitute) in the sun if it's out. The sun is a good sanitiser.
6. Once dry they are ready for use.
If you choose to add a chemical sanitiser to your bottle cleaning process that's your choice but I would gladly suggest you are probably just wasting your time and sanitiser.


 

I sorta agree with you Muzzy & I get your points. Marty is also well qualified to comment. I agree if the bottles are clean - they are clean.

I always out of habit thoroughly rinse out each bottle after emptying so when it comes to bottling day just another quick rinse & into the tub of sanitiser to the tree, then bottle.

We can be too over zealous but there are some who would not rinse & drain as we do & end up with dodgy bottles resulting in bad beer/infection.

[ozdevil]

1 hour ago, MUZZY said:

Cover your eyes, I'm about to write something that might offend some home brew pedants:
I DON'T USE SANITISER ON MY BOTTLES! IT'S NOT NECESSARY.
I put my trust in science and @martyG . A while ago Marty informed me that bacteria will form if there are substrates (crap on the inside of the bottle) for them to stick to.
If the bottles are cleaned there should be no substrates and thus no bacteria. Marty knows science stuff and his advice has proven invaluable to me.
This knowledge has made my bottling process much easier and to this stage has had no negative affect on my beers.
My bottling cleaning process is as follows:
1. ASAP after consumption (usually next morning for me) I rinse the muck out of the bottles.
2. I shake out as much water as possible from the bottles and store them upside down until I need them.
3. A couple of days before bottling day I soak the bottles and lids in a tub of hot water (not boiling because I use PETs) and sodium perc based laundry soaker.
4. The next day I give the bottles a vigorous shaking as I empty them and a rinse of cold water to get rid of any sod perc traces. If I notice any gunk in any of the bottles I'll give them a brushing with a silicon bottle brush I got from Kmart for $2. This is rare though.
5. I then place them inverted on my drying basket (my bottle tree substitute) in the sun if it's out. The sun is a good sanitiser.
6. Once dry they are ready for use.
If you choose to add a chemical sanitiser to your bottle cleaning process that's your choice but I would gladly suggest you are probably just wasting your time and sanitiser.


 

The main reason we Sanitize is to stop lurking bacteria and mould spores. Sanitizing just ensures you a safety net  

I'm not knocking you or Marty

let me Ask you Muzzy do you sanitize your fermenters?  

because on what you are stating there is no real need of sanitizing fermenters either


think of your bottle as another form of fermentation vessel as your bottle condition is still a form of fermentation  

so basically, what you're doing if you sanitize your fermenters and not sanitizing your bottles you are just undoing that safe environment for your Beer

you don't even have to sanitize your fermentation products really , the chances are the same   you could go 50 batches without  infection from bacteria or wild yeast particles 
but in that 51st batch and bingo you have pellicles or mould spores forming

This is the same bottle conditioning.  you could bottle with no hassles for 50 batches everything gone fine but that 51st batch you might get some gushers because poor sanitizing becuase of a bit of bacteria or some wild yeast while bottling has gotten into your beer


so is it worth the risk of bacteria  in your prize-winning beer   

why go through fermentation in cleaning and sanitizing at all if all it took was good scrub and wash stated by your method?

[Malter White]

4 minutes ago, ozdevil said:

The main reason we Sanitize is to stop lurking bacteria and mould spores. Sanitizing just ensures you a safety net  

I'm not knocking you or Marty

let me Ask you Muzzy do you sanitize your fermenters?  

because on what you are stating there is no real need of sanitizing fermenters either


think of your bottle as another form of fermentation vessel as your bottle condition is still a form of fermentation  

so basically, what you're doing if you sanitize your fermenters and not sanitizing your bottles you are just undoing that safe environment for your Beer

you don't even have to sanitize your fermentation products really , the chances are the same   you could go 50 batches without  infection from bacteria or wild yeast particles 
but in that 51st batch and bingo you have pellicles or mould spores forming

This is the same bottle conditioning.  you could bottle with no hassles for 50 batches everything gone fine but that 51st batch you might get some gushers because poor sanitizing becuase of a bit of bacteria or some wild yeast while bottling has gotten into your beer


so is it worth the risk of bacteria  in your prize-winning beer   

why go through fermentation in cleaning and sanitizing at all if all it took was good scrub and wash stated by your method?

Yes I sanitise all my other brewing equipment. Fementers with some nooks and crannies and through scratches from mixing will have a more likely source for bacteria to latch on to than a bottle will. If an infection occurs in a fermenter it could ruin 20-25 litres. If an infection occurs in a bottle it could ruin 750ml. The chances of an infection occurring in 30 bottles at once is pretty slim I would think. I'm a punter and happy to take the chances on my bottles being clean enough if it saves me the hassle of the sanitising process and the possibility that process is stuffing up the carbonation of my beer. I've never had carbonation issues and it had never crossed my mind that sanitiser could be a cause of carbonation problems. I offered my opinion in the hope it could serve as a solution to Rev's issue.
I appreciate you aren't knocking me, Oz. You're just putting your point of view across and that's what a forum is for. As I mentioned above, if you want to sanitise your bottles that's your choice. Cheers mate.

[jamiek86]

I'm asking if its stellar San we don't want to mention as causing carbonation and head retention problems? I've noticed the bottles or kegs that have that foam left over that Is suppose to be fine gives me issues. More in bottles but still after extra sugar in glass isn't what should be. If worried about being sued throw me hint or PM.

Edited January 23, 2022 by jamiek86

[iBooz2]

9 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I have had a lot of luck with these, they are only &2.50 per pack or you can get a bottle 250ml for about $8.00.

I use a packet for each brew in 5 litres of water in the FV & sanitise it along with all of the equipment. When I have finished I empty the contents in a large tu with a sealed lid & use it to sanitise a batch of bottles, a very affordable exercise.

@Classic Brewing Co , I think you will find that those Beer Essentials "No Rinse sanitation" products are just simply Sodium Percarbonate so you may be better off $ wise just buying powdered SP in a 1 kg tub (that's is if you like your results).  I used to use these SP sanitisers years ago but now just use the Phosphoric Acid based sanitisers, Star San, Steller San, Atomic 15 etc.

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 minute ago, iBooz2 said:

@Classic Brewing Co , I think you will find that those Beer Essentials "No Rinse sanitation" products are just simply Sodium Percarbonate so you may be better off $ wise just buying powdered SP in a 1 kg tub (that's is if you like your results).  I used to use these SP sanitisers years ago but now just use the Phosphoric Acid based sanitisers, Star San, Steller San, Atomic 15 etc.

Yes Al I understand, I have Stellar San but for convenience & when I am busy, I find these effective, they are actually 88% Sodium Perc but I am not sure about the other 12%  can't find it.

I also have heaps of 1kg bags of the other stuff as my nephew works in a Winery in Berri, you probably could guess which one.

Quote: Beer Essentials No Rinse Sanitizer. Environmentally Friendly No Rinse Formula* Makes sanitising easy* No rinsing* Breaks down to oxygen, water & natural minerals. Produced in Australia. Contains oxygen activated mineral crystals .Makes up to 5 litres of solution.

[Space]

13 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I sorta agree with you Muzzy & I get your points. Marty is well qualified to comment. I agree if the bottles are clean - they are clean.

I out of habit thoroughly rinse out each after emptying so when it comes to bottling just another quick rinse & into the tub of sanitiser to the tree, then bottle.

We can be too over zealous but there are some who would not rinse & drain as we do & end up with dodgy bottles resulting in bad beer/infection.

That's also the method I've settled into.  I wash the bottle thoroughly after I've drank the contents and when dry replace the lid and box them.  Before use I give them a sluice out with hot no-rinse using a bottle rinser (£12 well spent) and onto a bottle tree to dry (also a good buy).

[terminal2k]

14 hours ago, MUZZY said:

I use PETs

in the sun if it's out

isnt direct sunlight bad for plastic bottles

[Pickles Jones]

47 minutes ago, Space said:

Before use I give them a sluice out with hot no-rinse using a bottle rinser (£12 well spent) and onto a bottle tree to dry (also a good buy).

Sounds good.  As a matter of interest what sort is the 12 Pound bottle rinser you use.

[Malter White]

3 hours ago, terminal2k said:

isnt direct sunlight bad for plastic bottles

If you leave anything in the sun too long it will deteriorate. You only need to dry your bottles not bake them. Bring them in when they're dry.

[I'mRev]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:30 AM, Classic Brewing Co said:

From earlier posts I am sure you said you were in SA, maybe I am wrong but if you are I am curious as to what area as you mention the hot conditions.

I got lucky with this new place as it has very large rooms, double brick & high ceilings & I am next to the sea so brewing at ambient temperatures is no issue.

I'm at Woodville North and brew in a small garden shed which recently hit 43c inside on a hot day. I also store my beer there as I don't have room in the house for it. I've given up trying to brew in summer so I'll wait for cooler weather to start again. 

No problem in Winter. I have a thermostat controlled heat lamp and some insulation around the FV which keeps the temp at a stable 19c.  Also need to work out how to keep my beer cooler on the shelf when it starts get get hotter.

Re carbination. I've been using Stellarsan but will start rinsing before use (just to be safe) but I think my problem is either not enough sugar or overheating in storage. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by I'mRev

[Classic Brewing Co]

13 minutes ago, I'mRev said:

I'm at Woodville North and brew in a small garden shed which recently hit 43c inside on a hot day. I also store my beer there as I don't have room in the house for it. I've given up trying to brew in summer so I'll wait for cooler weather to start again. 

No problem in Winter. I have a thermostat controlled heat lamp and some insulation around the FV which keeps the temp at a stable 19c.  Also need to work out how to keep my beer cooler on the shelf when it starts get get hotter.

Re carbination. I've been using Stellarsan but will start rinsing before use (just to be safe) but I think my problem is either not enough sugar or overheating in storage. 

OK I am sorry you have to endure the shed temperatures, it's a shame you can't find room in the house for a cooler environment however we do what we have to do.

A mate of mine has stored his bottled home brew in a shed in foil insulated foam vegetable boxes you would find at the Fruit & Veg shop/Supermarket, apparently it helped reduce the temp quite a lot. Other than that  it's hard to suggest an alternative.

I wish you well.

Cheers 007. 

[iBooz2]

@I'mRev , yep I feel for you too dealing with the heat when trying top brew.  Way back when I was a teenager growing up in Mildura I used to brew beers and make my own wine.

My father had a big open bay farm type shed and it got stinking hot in there as no windows or breeze, probably 50 C plus on the hot days.  My solution was to dig a reasonable size hole in the earthen floor of that shed, a corner that was always shaded and bury the bottles of vino (plus my mum could not find them so no kick in the pants for a partying teenager).  Does not have to be very deep, sort of like cellaring without a cellar.  If your shed is on a slab then you are snookered.  Can you hide them under your house (presume a stumped house here)?

The old place has since been knocked down and flattened and by my reckoning there are still many bottles still buried there.  I was always going to go back and pace out the spot from the trees that are left and put up a sign that said "DIG 3 FT".

Edited January 25, 2022 by iBooz2

[Classic Brewing Co]

34 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

@I'mRev , yep I feel for you too dealing with the heat when trying top brew.  Way back when I was a teenager growing up in Mildura I used to brew beers and make my own wine.

My father had a big open bay farm type shed and it got stinking hot in there as no windows or breeze, probably 50 C plus on the hot days.  My solution was to dig a reasonable size hole in the earthen floor of that shed, a corner that was always shaded and bury the bottles of vino (plus my mum could not find them so no kick in the pants for a partying teenager).  Does not have to be very deep, sort of like cellaring without a cellar.  If your shed is on a slab then you are snookered.  Can you hide them under your house (presume a stumped house here)?

The old place has since been knocked down and flattened and by my reckoning there are still many bottles still buried there.  I was always going to go back and pace out the spot from the trees that are left and put up a sign that said "DIG 3 FT".

Good story Al, funny too, I remember when my old man & one of his brothers used to brew their beer in plastic garbage bins, you know the drill, in the winter it was bedspreads/electric blankets etc & in the summer it would be wet towels/fans/ice/wet newspaper - yes that is a good insulator !! 

My Uncle actually did as you stated, he dug a 'cellar' - a hole in the ground under the house, you know the ones with the elevated stumps which left a reasonable size gap to work with & it worked, they wrapped each old Pickaxe in newspaper & buried them under the house. The other added benefit was the women didn't know about it, my, how far we have come. 

[I'mRev]

On 1/25/2022 at 5:41 PM, Classic Brewing Co said:

A mate of mine has stored his bottled home brew in a shed in foil insulated foam vegetable boxes you would find at the Fruit & Veg shop/Supermarket, apparently it helped reduce the temp quite a lot. Other than that  it's hard to suggest an alternative.

I put my last batch in a big foam esky under the shady carport. Being subject to ambient temperatures, its cooler than in the big metal box that's my shed. I'm hoping that will be enough.

[Classic Brewing Co]

2 minutes ago, I'mRev said:

I put my last batch in a big foam esky under the shady carport. Being subject to ambient temperatures, its cooler than in the big metal box that's my shed. I'm hoping that will be enough.

Well at least you have an alterative,  that definitely would be cooler.

[Oldbloke]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:08 AM, MUZZY said:

Cover your eyes, I'm about to write something that might offend some home brew pedants:
I DON'T USE SANITISER ON MY BOTTLES! IT'S NOT NECESSARY.
I put my trust in science and @martyG . A while ago Marty informed me that bacteria will form if there are substrates (crap on the inside of the bottle) for them to stick to.
If the bottles are cleaned there should be no substrates and thus no bacteria. Marty knows science stuff and his advice has proven invaluable to me.
This knowledge has made my bottling process much easier and to this stage has had no negative affect on my beers.
My bottling cleaning process is as follows:
1. ASAP after consumption (usually next morning for me) I rinse the muck out of the bottles.
2. I shake out as much water as possible from the bottles and store them upside down until I need them.
3. A couple of days before bottling day I soak the bottles and lids in a tub of hot water (not boiling because I use PETs) and sodium perc based laundry soaker.
4. The next day I give the bottles a vigorous shaking as I empty them and a rinse of cold water to get rid of any sod perc traces. If I notice any gunk in any of the bottles I'll give them a brushing with a silicon bottle brush I got from Kmart for $2. This is rare though.
5. I then place them inverted on my drying basket (my bottle tree substitute) in the sun if it's out. The sun is a good sanitiser.
6. Once dry they are ready for use.
If you choose to add a chemical sanitiser to your bottle cleaning process that's your choice but I would gladly suggest you are probably just wasting your time and sanitiser.


 

Correct. Clean is all you need. I make good use of the dish washer for grubby stubbies. 

[Malter White]

1 hour ago, oldbloke said:

Correct. Clean is all you need. I make good use of the dish washer for grubby stubbies. 

Good on ya, @oldbloke.     I might just throw in a disclaimer here. *Dishwasher water is probably too hot for PET bottles.*
But yes, a dishwasher for glass bottles would be ideal. Love your work, champion.

[Oldbloke]

3 hours ago, MUZZY said:

Good on ya, @oldbloke.     I might just throw in a disclaimer here. *Dishwasher water is probably too hot for PET bottles.*
But yes, a dishwasher for glass bottles would be ideal. Love your work, champion.

Yeh  meant just for glass bottles. I don't use the Pets.