It's Kegging time 2022

[Shamus O'Sean]

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

• Atmospheric pressure in the keg
• 15psi in the fermenter
• Connect beer line to beer out post of fermenter
• Connect gas line to gas out post of keg
• Connect the beer line to the beer out post of keg
• Count to 10
• Connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter 

The 15psi makes the beer flow into the keg in the first place

The count of 10 allows time for enough beer to go into the keg and cover the bottom of the beer out dip tube.  This is important because if you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the FV too soon, the flow will slow to a trickle or even stop.

Once you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter, you will hear the gas pressure equalise.

Somewhat amazingly, the syphon effect takes over and the beer keeps flowing from the FV into the keg.  The syphon effect works whether you are at normal air pressure or still under pressure.  When the gas pressure equalises, you probably have somewhere between 5 -10 psi between the FV and the keg.

The scales are so I can monitor the flow by the weight increasing and I also know when the keg is just about full.

You can do it like you did Squinter, with CO2 to push the beer out and an open ended gas out on the keg.  But that unnecessarily uses up more gas.  It is probably quicker though.  But you do not want the transfer to be too quick if your beer is already carbonated becasue it will froth up in the keg and come out the gas in before the keg is full of liquid.

[Pale Man]

31 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

• Atmospheric pressure in the keg
• 15psi in the fermenter
• Connect beer line to beer out post of fermenter
• Connect gas line to gas out post of keg
• Connect the beer line to the beer out post of keg
• Count to 10
• Connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter 

The 15psi makes the beer flow into the keg in the first place

The count of 10 allows time for enough beer to go into the keg and cover the bottom of the beer out dip tube.  This is important because if you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the FV too soon, the flow will slow to a trickle or even stop.

Once you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter, you will hear the gas pressure equalise.

Somewhat amazingly, the syphon effect takes over and the beer keeps flowing from the FV into the keg.  The syphon effect works whether you are at normal air pressure or still under pressure.  When the gas pressure equalises, you probably have somewhere between 5 -10 psi between the FV and the keg.

The scales are so I can monitor the flow by the weight increasing and I also know when the keg is just about full.

You can do it like you did Squinter, with CO2 to push the beer out and an open ended gas out on the keg.  But that unnecessarily uses up more gas.  It is probably quicker though.  But you do not want the transfer to be too quick if your beer is already carbonated becasue it will froth up in the keg and come out the gas in before the keg is full of liquid.

Makes sense but don't you eventually run out of gas from the fermenter to get it into the keg? Or is the keg gas going back into the fermenter enough? 

[ozdevil]

2 hours ago, Pale Man said:

Yeah was thinking the same. I'm kegging soon from my Fermzilla for the first time. I would've thought gas bottle onto the fermenter gas post. Beer line from fermenter to beer post on keg. And blow tie on the keg gas post. I don't get what's going on with @Shamus O'Sean set up here.

 

10 hours ago, stquinto said:

I'm missing something Shamus mate: you've got beer-to-beer but also gas-to-gas ?

I thought the top one (i.e. the FV) was connected to a gas bottle when the pressure ran down, but the bottom one (i.e. the cornie) had a gas "escape line" ?

what shamus is trying to do here  is recirculate the co2     from fz  into keg  then keg back into fz   rather then connecting a co2 bottle   

this way Shamus is saving his precious co2   

[Pezzza]

4 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

That's Gold @Shamus O'Sean SOS mate luvyerwork - I guess one must ensure that the empty clean receiving keggler has been filled prior with CO2 - purged of Oxygen - and via PRV is back to ambient ATM Pressure...  just a nice simple oxy free method and no extra CO2 leaving the scene - nice work mate!

[kmar92]

I use the same method as @Shamus O'Sean, there really is no need to hook up CO2 for the closed transfer to take place, it is an unnecessary consumer of CO2. I purge the corny before transfer and with the lines hooked up as shown the beer transfers from the FV to the corny and is replaced in the FV with CO2 from the corny. It can take a little while to complete the transfer, up to 45mins but I am in no hurry. I also weigh the corny to ascertain how much beer is in it, as @Shamus O'Sean does.

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, kmar92 said:

I use the same method as @Shamus O'Sean, there really is no need to hook up CO2 for the closed transfer to take place, it is an unnecessary consumer of CO2. I purge the corny before transfer and with the lines hooked up as shown the beer transfers from the FV to the corny and is replaced in the FV with CO2 from the corny. It can take a little while to complete the transfer, up to 45mins but I am in no hurry. I also weigh the corny to ascertain how much beer is in it, as @Shamus O'Sean does.

The only query I have on this I would've thought once pressure equalises between the two vessels the liquid won't move. I thought the fermenter always had to be at a higher psi to get transferred or am I overthinking?

[Pezzza]

26 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

I thought the fermenter always had to be at a higher psi to get transferred or am I overthinking?

I think it is just like a siphon effect - so you do need to have the FV sitting up higher than the keggler - or would have thought so - so that you have gravity also on your side... but I have been wrong before 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Itinerant Peasant

[kmar92]

@PaleMan so long as the corny is at atmospheric and the FV has some pressure in it when you commence, the pressure in the FV will push the beer to the corny. Once it has started you then connect a line gas post to gas post and the beer will continue to transfer - a simple siphon effect taking place, so long as the FV is above the corny. Once the siphon is going the gas line just keeps the pressures equal between the 2 to enable the siphon to continue. In other words as the volume of beer in the FV decreases it is replaced with CO2 from the corny via the gas to gas line.

[Pezzza]

4 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

so long as the FV is above the corny. Once the siphon is going

Cheers @kmar92 KMar - but as you note - one does have to have the vessel of origin at a higher level than the receiving one...

Edited June 8, 2022 by Itinerant Peasant

[kmar92]

Just now, Itinerant Peasant said:

Cheers @kmar92 KMar - but you do have your vessel of origin at a higher level than the receiving one?

Yes, that is very necessary for the siphon effect to take place.

[Pezzza]

1 minute ago, kmar92 said:

Yes, that is very necessary for the siphon effect to take place.

It's a very nice neat and tidy way to do things @kmar92 and @Shamus O'Sean...  as well as being anoxic as long as the hoses disconnects etc are sterile - completely without any possibility of contam.

And you know even with the good ol' Coopers Plazzi FV - as long as you have CO2 purged the receiving keg - and have a spunder or some valve to let the displaced CO2 out - the inherent ferment generated CO2 blanket above the completed Beer - should also keep the beer pretty much Oxygen free as well 

[Classic Brewing Co]

I am thinking all of this info is good for future reference for me, however I do not have or know much about pressure fermenters.

For know I will continue with the basic way to transfer beer into the keg & take it from there.

[Pale Man]

I'm totally with it now fellas. It's the siphoning bit I was missing.

Excellent info thanks.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Pale Man

[kmar92]

2 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

It's a very nice neat and tidy way to do things @kmar92 and @Shamus O'Sean...  as well as being anoxic as long as the hoses disconnects etc are sterile - completely without any possibility of contam.

And you know even with the good ol' Coopers Plazzi FV - as long as you have CO2 purged the receiving keg - and have a spunder or some valve to let the displaced CO2 out - the inherent ferment generated CO2 blanket above the completed Beer - should also keep the beer pretty much Oxygen free as well 

Yes I do a very similar transfer when I use a Coopers plazzi FV. Difference being of course there is no pressure in the plazzi FV. I have a small piece of tube fitted to the tap on the FV, actually just a bottling wand cut down to about 50mm length, that a length of 5mm Evabarrier tube fits into with a liquid disconnect on the other end to connect to the liquid post on a corny. This minimizes splash during the transfer as the corny fills from the bottom via the dip tube on the liquid post. The corny is purged before the transfer with CO2, I attach a gas disconnect and line to the gas post on the corny to allow CO2 to escape during the transfer, I do not bother with a spunding valve I just let the line vent. Set the corny up on scales to measure how much beer has transferred and away I go. No, or extremely limited, oxygen exposure to the beer as the beer in the FV sits under a blanket of CO2 from the ferment and the empty corny is full of CO2. It works really well and is a concept that I borrowed from @Shamus O'Sean!

[stquinto]

1 hour ago, kmar92 said:

Yes I do a very similar transfer when I use a Coopers plazzi FV. Difference being of course there is no pressure in the plazzi FV. I have a small piece of tube fitted to the tap on the FV, actually just a bottling wand cut down to about 50mm length, that a length of 5mm Evabarrier tube fits into with a liquid disconnect on the other end to connect to the liquid post on a corny. This minimizes splash during the transfer as the corny fills from the bottom via the dip tube on the liquid post. The corny is purged before the transfer with CO2, I attach a gas disconnect and line to the gas post on the corny to allow CO2 to escape during the transfer, I do not bother with a spunding valve I just let the line vent. Set the corny up on scales to measure how much beer has transferred and away I go. No, or extremely limited, oxygen exposure to the beer as the beer in the FV sits under a blanket of CO2 from the ferment and the empty corny is full of CO2. It works really well and is a concept that I borrowed from @Shamus O'Sean!

Cheers for that one mate. I think I'll give that a go next time. I don't ferment my Duvel clones under pressure as I can't fit them in the fridge to cold crash them, they're just in a normal fermenting bucket, which does fit in a fridge for CC.

But the transfer to a keg with minimum O2 exposure woud be good...

[Pezzza]

3 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

For know I will continue with the basic way to transfer beer into the keg & take it from there.

@Classic Brewing Co Phil - once you have done your AG Brew/or good qual KnK in the FV - and then want to transfer to the Keg - this is only for Kegging - then you should consider strongly using this methodology that @kmar92 KMar describes above - and that @Shamus O'Sean SOS posted some time ago - and put me onto - that works with Coopers Plazzi FV - not the filthy klfzilla thing necessarily - just with the good old tried and true Coopers Plazzi - and will allow you to do pretty much a clean oxygen free transfer - would highly recommend it.

@Shamus O'Sean can you post the link to your earlier standard anoxic contam free Coopers Plazzi transfer to keg post that you did a while ago - please?

Would be good for us right now and for all punters who use kegs to at least consider such opportunities!

[Classic Brewing Co]

4 minutes ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

@Classic Brewing Co Phil - once you have done your AG Brew/or good qual KnK in the FV - and then want to transfer to the Keg - this is only for Kegging - then you should consider strongly using this methodology that @kmar92 KMar describes above - and that @Shamus O'Sean SOS posted some time ago - and put me onto - that works with Coopers Plazzi FV - not the filthy klfzilla thing necessarily - just with the good old tried and true Coopers Plazzi - and will allow you to do pretty much a clean oxygen free transfer - would highly recommend it.

@Shamus O'Sean can you post the link to your earlier standard anoxic contam free Coopers Plazzi transfer to keg post that you did a while ago - please?

Would be good for us right now and for all punters who use kegs to at least consider such opportunities!

Yeah all good, I still have my learner plates on with kegging but I will take it all onboard but it is still a bit out there for me ATM, however I will conquer it !!

Just happy to be able to pour a beer out of the tap.

[kmar92]

32 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Yeah all good, I still have my learner plates on with kegging but I will take it all onboard but it is still a bit out there for me ATM, however I will conquer it !!

Just happy to be able to pour a beer out of the tap.

It is pretty straightforward @Classic Brewing Co, you just need some 5mm Evabarrier or similar tube, a spare gas and liquid disconnect and a bottling wand and then you can do transfers to kegs that are virtually free of O2 exposure. Closed transfers do make a difference to the beer I have found.

[Classic Brewing Co]

34 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

It is pretty straightforward @Classic Brewing Co, you just need some 5mm Evabarrier or similar tube, a spare gas and liquid disconnect and a bottling wand and then you can do transfers to kegs that are virtually free of O2 exposure. Closed transfers do make a difference to the beer I have found.

Thanks for that mate but I am still taking it all in slowly, I am yet to find out what CO2 exposure actually is 

[kmar92]

1 minute ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Thanks for that mate but I am still taking it all in slowly, I am yet to find out what CO2 exposure actually is 

Not CO2 exposure, rather exposure to O2, oxygen. Oxygen degrades alcohol and some of aroma and taste of beer, oxidised beer can taste off and smell off. Of course the danger during transfer of beer is that it can be exposed to oxygen from the atmosphere so that is why closed transfers, with no oxygen exposure, helps to keep the beer in good shape.

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, Pale Man said:

The only query I have on this I would've thought once pressure equalises between the two vessels the liquid won't move. I thought the fermenter always had to be at a higher psi to get transferred or am I overthinking?

I used to think the same thing until I tried it.  I also thought, like your earlier comment, that the pressure in the FV would run out.

I now kind of get how it works.  I suspect it does not really matter what the pressure is, but 15psi is enough.  Even 1,000psi would do the same (as long as nothing burst).

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

@Shamus O'Sean can you post the link to your earlier standard anoxic contam free Coopers Plazzi transfer to keg post that you did a while ago - please?

Photo as requested IP:

Exactly as @kmar92 and others describe it.

• 50mm long piece of bottling wand into the Coopers plazzi tap
• Length of 8mm OD beer line fits firmly inside the bottling wand, with a beer disconnect on the other end
• Something to allow the keg to vent (lock open PRV, gas disconnect, I use a gas to gas jumper with a carbonation cap)

1. Keg is pre-purged with CO2 (fill with sanitiser and push it out with CO2)
2. Sanitise tap, beer line and beer out post like normal
3. I leave the bottling wand, beer line and beer disconnect always assembled
4. Wand into tap.
5. Release pressure from keg via PRV
6. Gas disconnect onto gas in of keg
7. Turn on FV tap
8. Use your finger to depress nib inside beer disconnect to allow beer to fill the line
9. Spray inside of beer disconnect with sanitiser to rinse and sanitise
10. Connect beer disconnect to beer out post of keg
11. Flow will start

[terminal2k]

14 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

one does have to have the vessel of origin at a higher level than the receiving one

I don't know if I have a degenerate mind, but every time I open a kegging thread there is some kind of comment that sounds NSFW. People are always lubing things up or playing with their dip tubes. 

[stquinto]

10 minutes ago, terminal2k said:

I don't know if I have a degenerate mind, but every time I open a kegging thread there is some kind of comment that sounds NSFW. People are always lubing things up or playing with their dip tubes. 

Yup, degenerate it is mate. This thread is as pure as the driven snow

[Classic Brewing Co]

12 hours ago, kmar92 said:

Not CO2 exposure, rather exposure to O2, oxygen. Oxygen degrades alcohol and some of aroma and taste of beer, oxidised beer can taste off and smell off. Of course the danger during transfer of beer is that it can be exposed to oxygen from the atmosphere so that is why closed transfers, with no oxygen exposure, helps to keep the beer in good shape.

Thanks for that but as I said I am still finding my way around, & as you know I have been fortunate to have expert help from @Hoppy81 which has advanced me further into the whole kegging regime & also invaluable help with AG brewing.

I must also add, others members of this forum have also been a great help.

It is a big move for anybody but like everything else if you follow instructions, listen, you will learn. Practical experience makes it real but there are so many things that can go wrong or can be improved.

All I know so far the first keg of beer after 2 weeks @ 10psi pours & tastes a treat & that was only a k & k Coopers Real Ale, that surely would be running low now but I have another brew to refill it with. Then very soon more kegs are arriving & then some AG beers will be coming out of my taps.