Jump to content
Coopers Community

DUVEL Clone


iBooz2

Recommended Posts

All this recent talk about DUVEL has me digging though my research notebook to see if I am up for the challenge of having a crack at one.  It would be a bit too hot for me ABV wise but I have a friend that would really appreciate a keg of this at around Christmas time as he says the best Christmases he has ever had were in Belgian.

My research has it down as a strong Belgian blond ale at 8.5%, EBC = 6 (3 SRM) but I have no idea of the IBU and cannot even have a guess because I have never tasted one.

It is brewed with just one style of malt, which is light pilsner malt. No idea of a mash schedule.   It is boiled only to absolute minimum to prevent darkening the colour so where is the cut-off re DMS here.  Then a shipload of liquid dextrose is dosed in after the boil to get the ABV up there and to stop any further darkening from boiling the dextrose in the wort.

It is hopped with SAAZ and Styrian Golding (Fuggles family).

Yeast is pitched at 20 C and allowed to rise to 26 C over the 4 days of primary ferment.  It is then cold crashed down to 2 C and held there for 20 days.

When it is ready for bottling they force carb the beer to 2.55 vols of CO2 then inject it with exact measurements of fresh yeast and dextrose to arrive at a finished product with 4.3 vols of CO2 after the secondary ferment, then its cooled back down and it is lagered for several weeks before delivery.

Now this yeast injection is a similar process to what Coopers do with their beers so the question needs to be asked.  Has anybody has tried to cultivate the yeast from Duvel bottles just like we do with CCA yeast.  I would be interested to know if it is successful or not.

Otherwise a suggested yeast strain for Duvel brewing are WLP570 but this has some diastaticus genes so you might have to tread carefully when using this strain in your brewery.

Anyway that is as much as I have gleaned other than its yeast strain was originally sourced from Scotland at around 1920 so there may be better yeasts (if unable to harvest for the bottles themselves) to get close to this beer.

Food for thought?

Edited by iBooz2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

All this recent talk about DUVEL has me digging though my research notebook to see if I am up for the challenge of having a crack at one.  It would be a bit too hot for me ABV wise but I have a friend that would really appreciate a keg of this at around Christmas time as he says the best Christmases he has ever had were in Belgian.

My research has it down as a strong Belgian blond ale at 8.5%, EBC = 6 (3 SRM) but I have no idea of the IBU and cannot even have a guess because I have never tasted one.

It is brewed with just one style of malt, which is light pilsner malt. No idea of a mash schedule.   It is boiled only to absolute minimum to prevent darkening the colour so where is the cut-off re DMS here.  Then a shipload of liquid dextrose is dosed in after the boil to get the ABV up there and to stop any further darkening from boiling the dextrose in the wort.

It is hopped with SAAZ and Styrian Golding (Fuggles family).

Yeast is pitched at 20 C and allowed to rise to 26 C over the 4 days of primary ferment.  It is then cold crashed down to 2 C and held there for 20 days.

When it is ready for bottling they force carb the beer to 2.55 vols of CO2 then inject it with exact measurements of fresh yeast and dextrose to arrive at a finished product with 4.3 vols of CO2 after the secondary ferment, then its cooled back down and it is lagered for several weeks before delivery.

Now this yeast injection is a similar process to what Coopers do with their beers so the question needs to be asked.  Has anybody has tried to cultivate the yeast from Duvel bottles just like we do with CCA yeast.  I would be interested to know if it is successful or not.

Otherwise a suggested yeast strain for Duvel brewing are WLP570 but this has some diastaticus genes so you might have to tread carefully when using this strain in your brewery.

Anyway that is as much as I have gleaned other than its yeast strain was originally sourced from Scotland at around 1920 so there may be better yeasts (if unable to harvest for the bottles themselves) to get close to this beer.

Food for thought?

I'll stick my recipe up fella, i'm not shy to share. Youll have to take into account i brewed in the 35l Brewzilla. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

WY1388 or WLP570 are both duvel. Pitch low and raise. Had even better results pitching at 16c. The other thing. Oxygenate well. It will help avoid the alcohol burn and also the stall which happens a lot with this yeast.

16348071985564642824516671292895.jpg

Would love to have a crack with genuine yeast. Improving the recipe even more.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Pale Man said:

Would love to have a crack with genuine yeast. Improving the recipe even more.

Maybe not @Pale Man. The duvel yeast is a true PITA. Took a few batches of dicking around to get a decent result to be honest. I use abbaye in a leffe clone and its awesome. It's a similar type yeast to WY1388 I think.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Maybe not @Pale Man. The duvel yeast is a true PITA. Took a few batches of dicking around to get a decent result to be honest. I use abbaye in a leffe clone and its awesome. It's a similar type yeast to WY1388 I think.

Ok no worries. I must say i'm very stoked with my beer. I got my Mrs to try a Duvel, then taste my Ale. She preferred mine.

I'm not sure what that means, Duvel is in my top 3 favourite beers. So ill run with it. You get lucky sometimes.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Maybe not @Pale Man. The duvel yeast is a true PITA. Took a few batches of dicking around to get a decent result to be honest. I use abbaye in a leffe clone and its awesome. It's a similar type yeast to WY1388 I think.

Shite, i'd love a Leffe Blond recipe too. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Pale Man said:

Funny you say that @iBooz2  I have so many recipes in waiting. But this has to be done again. Its ridicoulsy tasty.

I know the feeling.  My "To-Do" brews library has outgrown its folder.  Reads like War and Peace.  Always seem to not have the right hops or yeast at hand so cannot wait for OS shipping deliveries get back to something like normal again.  In the meantime I brew as many of my favourites as I can.  Trouble is we get more and more favourites and that crowds out our brew day decision time.

Edited by iBooz2
  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I’ll be brewing a batch this weekend. I need to make a starter from the WY1388 so need to prepare 3 days before. I think I’ll order the Lallemand strain though as I suspect I’ll be brewing a few of these. It’ll be my first brew in a King Keg junior, then into a 10l keg. I have a recipe using different mash temperatures, and also using light candi syrup as well as dextrose. Will let you know 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I think I posted this elsewhere but I mine ended up like this (I kegged it in the end)

Really happy with it, my best effort so far.

The next batch I want to bottle rahter than keg so after the 20 day cold crash I'll have to add more yeast and sugar as it will have fermented out.

@iBooz2 @Pale Man @Greenyinthewestofsydney @RDT2 any of you fellas have a suggestion as to the yeast to add for the bottling ? I have some left over trub from this brew, or I could make a starter from a few Duvel bottles. I was going to put whatever yeast I was going to use into a sanitised FV with the priming sugar, then syphon the beer from the finisehd cold crash,  and bottle it.

Any thoughts ?

duval2.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, stquinto said:

I think I posted this elsewhere but I mine ended up like this (I kegged it in the end)

Really happy with it, my best effort so far.

The next batch I want to bottle rahter than keg so after the 20 day cold crash I'll have to add more yeast and sugar as it will have fermented out.

@iBooz2 @Pale Man @Greenyinthewestofsydney @RDT2 any of you fellas have a suggestion as to the yeast to add for the bottling ? I have some left over trub from this brew, or I could make a starter from a few Duvel bottles. I was going to put whatever yeast I was going to use into a sanitised FV with the priming sugar, then syphon the beer from the finisehd cold crash,  and bottle it.

Any thoughts ?

 

@stquinto , as you are happy with your Duvel clones so far and until you can try the harvest and grow the yeast from dregs of proper Duvel beer bottles, why not just short circuit the 20 day cold crash a fair bit (say only a couple of days CC) and just bulk prime into the secondary FV to get reasonable sugar distribution then bottle?  That way you should have enough yeast in suspension to deal with the bulk prime dextrose sugars and produce that nice carbonation and fluffy head.

If you were successful in harvesting and getting a starter going off Duvel bottle dregs yeast and creating a stash for brewing and also for bottling your own beers then you would have to work out approximately how many fresh yeast cells per ml and maybe use a syringe to accurately put that exact amount of yeast liquid into each bottle after you have bulk primed to secondary FV for the sugar part of the process.  Dunno.

I have it written down somewhere how many fresh yeast cells Coopers inject into their Pale Ales per ml etc. at bottling time but cannot find it at this time.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

@stquinto , as you are happy with your Duvel clones so far and until you can try the harvest and grow the yeast from dregs of proper Duvel beer bottles, why not just short circuit the 20 day cold crash a fair bit (say only a couple of days CC) and just bulk prime into the secondary FV to get reasonable sugar distribution then bottle?  That way you should have enough yeast in suspension to deal with the bulk prime dextrose sugars and produce that nice carbonation and fluffy head.

If you were successful in harvesting and getting a starter going off Duvel bottle dregs yeast and creating a stash for brewing and also for bottling your own beers then you would have to work out approximately how many fresh yeast cells per ml and maybe use a syringe to accurately put that exact amount of yeast liquid into each bottle after you have bulk primed to secondary FV for the sugar part of the process.  Dunno.

I have it written down somewhere how many fresh yeast cells Coopers inject into their Pale Ales per ml etc. at bottling time but cannot find it at this time.

 

Thanks for that IB ! It does sound a bit complicated to measure out all that stuff. I will have a think. I pressure fermented the last batch in a Keg King Junior, , which took up the space of a keg in the fridge I use for kegging when it came to cold crashing. That was fine, I wish I had made a bigger batch, it only ended up being 12 litres. In the KKJ I think I could do an 18 litre batch, there wasn't too much krausen.

So you reckon a short cold crash, then into a second FV with sugar (that's what I do anyway) and bottle ? Would be interesting to see if the 20 days cold crash is what makes it special.

I would like to understand the secondary yeast addition as I would like to try an Orval clone, that uses special Brettanomyces bruxellensis yeast for the bottle conditioning. My LHBS has run out, although I could cultivate it from Orval bottles. 

Alternatively I could send an email to the Duval brewery and ask, I've bought enough of their damn produce over the years 😉

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, stquinto said:

 

I would like to understand the secondary yeast addition as I would like to try an Orval clone, that uses special Brettanomyces bruxellensis yeast for the bottle conditioning. My LHBS has run out, although I could cultivate it from Orval bottles. 

Alternatively I could send an email to the Duval brewery and ask, I've bought enough of their damn produce over the years 😉

 

My only advice is be careful adding brettanomyces at bottling time. It will eat unfermentable sugars and could cause a bottle bomb if your not careful. Err on the side of caution.

16438062327782011303713098502611.jpg

16438063263701993125255421863019.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Make a starter. Put it into a bottling bucket. Add the sugar or dextrose dissolved in some water. Give it a gentle stir to mix it in and bottle away.

I'll give it a go. I'm happy to go with making a 19l cornie and after the cold crash I could transfer to a cornie with the starter and dissolved dextrose. If it's too gassy it won't explode the cornie after all. I have just been delivered the floating kits to convert my cornies so it should be clear enough. 

But I do want to try bottling some so I can move them around (probably wouldn't give those away 🤣). So I'll give it a go, just try to get the amount of yeast right. Having said that, it will presumably just convert the sugar available to the CO2 we're looking for: if there's nothing left to ferment I suppose it just drops out ?

3 hours ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

My only advice is be careful adding brettanomyces at bottling time. It will eat unfermentable sugars and could cause a bottle bomb if your not careful. Err on the side of caution.

Got a point there mate. That might be one of those beers I choose to buy instead. I like Orval a lot but I can live with buying it rather than having to clone it. Have to think about it.

Cheers for the advice 👍 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just came across this yeast: Fermentis F2:

image.png.a378eacbe734f786a99213ed0a2fdbb4.png

I'll be using this for bottle fermenting I think. Should be a bit easier to dose. Having said that, the instructions say 2 - 7 g per hl. Now to me a "hl" is 100 litres. So a maximum of 1.4g for a 20 litre batch seems a bit on the low side, especially since the packs are 20g apiece.

I sent an email to Fermentis, will see what they say. 

 

Edited by stquinto
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, stquinto said:

I just came across this yeast: Fermentis F2:

image.png.a378eacbe734f786a99213ed0a2fdbb4.png

I'll be using this for bottle fermenting I think. Should be a bit easier to dose. Having said that, the instructions say 2 - 7 g per hl. Now to me a "hl" is 100 litres. So a maximum of 1.4g for a 20 litre batch seems a bit on the low side, especially since the packs are 20g apiece.

I sent an email to Fermentis, will see what they say. 

 

Looks interesting. I wouldn't mind trying this in my Belgians and flanders red ales.

https://fermentis.com/en/product/safale-f-2/

Will be interesting to see what fermentis say. The website says 2 to 35g per 100 litres.. that's a pretty wide range 🤣

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/5/2022 at 4:47 AM, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Looks interesting. I wouldn't mind trying this in my Belgians and flanders red ales.

https://fermentis.com/en/product/safale-f-2/

Will be interesting to see what fermentis say. The website says 2 to 35g per 100 litres.. that's a pretty wide range 🤣

Haven't got a reply yet but I found this on the technical specs on their site.

I wrote again to ask for suggestions as to the dosage.

If my beer is 8°, and I want 4.3 g/l of CO2 (the Duvel amount) it would be between 7 and 14 g/hL, we'll say 10 - 11 g/hL. So for 20 l I woud need 2g....

Each pack is 20G so that would cover 200 l ! On their site it says to use within 7 days once opened .

I have a digital scale but for fractions of grams I would need a drug dealers scale I suppose.

I have come across a recipe for Westvleteren 12 on Brewfather which suggested this :

If you bottle the beer, I would consider pitching 2 grams of Fermentis F-2 bottle yeast, since these long secondaries sometimes compromises the yeast. 
so that would sound about right for 2g: my Duvel will be less strong than the Westvleteren, but also more CO2, so should be OK.

Hopefully they'll reply though.

image.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...