FG for recipes are always way higher?

[slp]

I recently brewed unreal ale and aztec gold both testing with calibrated refractometer and in small brew room at 21C

The unreal ale i used 1kg of brigalow dextrose instead of the BE1. so should be higher than 4.6% what the recipe says

OG - 1.046

FG - 1.020 (3.9% ABV), it did not change after day 6 and was clear (yeast sunk to bottom of FV) after 10 days when bottling

Same has happened with the aztec gold and other recipes i have tried on here, 1-2% lower because of high FG

Another question - it says only use 1 carb drop for bottles intended to be stored for a longer period how long is this period? and how long can you store beer with no preservatives in PET bottles before they go bad?

 

Both tasted great btw, just wondering why this could happen

Edited September 12, 2021 by slp

[Malter White]

@slp Once you add your priming sugar to your bottles your ABV will go up another 0.5% approximately.

Your beer will keep for years. The reason they suggest one carb drop for longer aged bottles is because the carbonation process continues over time. Two carb drops could create bottle bombs over a long period of storage.

[iBooz2]

6 hours ago, slp said:

I recently brewed unreal ale and aztec gold both testing with calibrated refractometer and in small brew room at 21C

The unreal ale i used 1kg of brigalow dextrose instead of the BE1. so should be higher than 4.6% what the recipe says

OG - 1.046

FG - 1.020 (3.9% ABV), it did not change after day 6 and was clear (yeast sunk to bottom of FV) after 10 days when bottling

Same has happened with the aztec gold and other recipes i have tried on here, 1-2% lower because of high FG

Another question - it says only use 1 carb drop for bottles intended to be stored for a longer period how long is this period? and how long can you store beer with no preservatives in PET bottles before they go bad?

 

Both tasted great btw, just wondering why this could happen

Many of us have found the figures quoted in the Coopers recipes to be a bit "rubbery".  Coopers say they have been measured under lab conditions but my experiences have shown that the numbers you get from IanH spreadsheet when you punch in the recipe contents will give you a much better approximation to actual real life outcomes.  I once asked Coopers about their claim that their 1 x 1.5 kg can of liquid light malt extract (or was it 500 g dry malt extract dunno now) can produce 2.2% ABV (or something like that - going from memory here) and there was no way it could possibly do that.  They did not comment.

Get yourself a copy of that spreadsheet and learn to punch in the recipe contents, it will be better than doing you head in.  Make sure you enter the right yeast strain too.

Also another tip:  when your brews get to a few points off landing at the FG bump the temperature up a fair bit.  A few degrees higher can help the yeast finish off as they will be buggered by then and need all the help they can get.

If bottling in PET balloon bottles and storing for a very long time, stick to 2 x carb drops minimum because you don't want to store your bottles of precious beer for 6 or 12 months only to find the buggers flat.  Maybe not 2 x carb drops if a stout but wait for stout brewers to comment about these beers.  The yeast can only work on what sugars are there in the bottles, when the sugars are all used up its the end of the road for carbonation.  I have had some lagers stored for 12 months and they were very poorly carbonated.

Edited September 12, 2021 by iBooz2

[Pickles Jones]

Best to use two carb drops as discussed above. One in a Coopers PET bottle is not enough.

I would be drinking that style of beer with in a couple to three from months from bottling.

 You can leave some for very much longer, however the lighter beers tend to loose a bit/lot of "flavour" and are probably best drunk sooner than later.

I have stouts bottled for 18 months which I have used two carb drops per Grolsch swing top and they are certainly not a disappointment nor have any exploded--touch wood..

 

[slp]

12 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Many of us have found the figures quoted in the Coopers recipes to be a bit "rubbery".  Coopers say they have been measured under lab conditions but my experiences have shown that the numbers you get from IanH spreadsheet when you punch in the recipe contents will give you a much better approximation to actual real life outcomes.  I once asked Coopers about their claim that their 1 x 1.5 kg can of liquid light malt extract (or was it 500 g dry malt extract dunno now) can produce 2.2% ABV (or something like that - going from memory here) and there was no way it could possibly do that.  They did not comment.

Get yourself a copy of that spreadsheet and learn to punch in the recipe contents, it will be better than doing you head in.  Make sure you enter the right yeast strain too.

Also another tip:  when your brews get to a few points off landing at the FG bump the temperature up a fair bit.  A few degrees higher can help the yeast finish off as they will be buggered by then and need all the help they can get.

If bottling in PET balloon bottles and storing for a very long time, stick to 2 x carb drops minimum because you don't want to store your bottles of precious beer for 6 or 12 months only to find the buggers flat.  Maybe not 2 x carb drops if a stout but wait for stout brewers to comment about these beers.  The yeast can only work on what sugars are there in the bottles, when the sugars are all used up its the end of the road for carbonation.  I have had some lagers stored for 12 months and they were very poorly carbonated.

some good info here, thanks

where can i get this IanH spreadsheet?

[Journeyman]

6 minutes ago, slp said:

where can i get this IanH spreadsheet?

Here's the one I use, got some additions to the usual one. Don't trust the Mr Beer figures though - still working on how to get those to work.

A possibility for your refractometer is that those figures need to be adjusted. Refractos are only accurate for OG - as soon as the yeast starts making alcohol the reading is wrong and needs to be adjusted to compensate. I'm not sure of the details nor the adjustment to be made so do a search on it. (unless of course you are already doing the adjustment?  )

Kit and Extract Beer Designer v4.2a.xls

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

Don't trust the Mr Beer figures though - still working on how to get those to work.

@Coopers DIY Beer Team posted here a while ago a good explanation of the IBU and EBC calculations.  They said it was a measure "in kilograms per litre (kg/L)".  However, how they explained how to calculate IBU/EBC seemed more like the IBU stated on the website for each extract (not what is in the can) is per kilogram per litre (and I might not be saying this right).

So, if I understand it right:

• The Bewitched Amber Ale extract is 295 IBU's per kg per L. 
• So in a 1.3kg can, you have 295 x 1.3 = 383.5 IBU's in the can.
• If you dilute this to 8.5 litres, you then have 383.5 / 8.5 = 45.1 IBU's 

Glancing at the formulas in your spreadsheet, @Journeyman, that is what they say too.

[Journeyman]

20 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Glancing at the formulas in your spreadsheet, @Journeyman, that is what they say too.

Like I said, it's in progress. I kinda worked along with what you say - the problem I had was, when I then go to the recipe spreadhseet and use one of those to build a Mr Beer beer, the IBU's are quite different.

[Shamus O'Sean]

10 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Like I said, it's in progress. I kinda worked along with what you say - the problem I had was, when I then go to the recipe spreadhseet and use one of those to build a Mr Beer beer, the IBU's are quite different.

If you are trying to match Coopers quoted IBU's for one of the recipes, you would have thought the spreadsheet would be pretty close if we are following the Coopers IBU and EBC formula.  Especially for the recipes that do not have hop boils to increase the IBU's.  I think that is why I kept using IanH's original formulae:  Because it gave you values closer to the amounts quoted for the recipes by Coopers.

[stquinto]

On 9/12/2021 at 12:45 PM, MUZZY said:

@slp Once you add your priming sugar to your bottles your ABV will go up another 0.5% approximately.

Your beer will keep for years. The reason they suggest one carb drop for longer aged bottles is because the carbonation process continues over time. Two carb drops could create bottle bombs over a long period of storage.

I’m with @MUZZY on this one. I bottle in glass bottles, heavy-duty Belgian style that have a deposit on them because they use them again (in Belgium). If I am going to keep the beer for a long time (like for a Belgian dubble style) I put less sugar in the bottle. Last night I bottled a Brew A but with only 5g/l as I know it’ll take some maturing. With those bottles I‘ve not had any glass grenades but I have with cheaper bottles. I have had a few gushers mind. The only problem with that approach is for all of the batch you have to wait a long time for sufficient  secondary fermentation, unless you chose to do a few with more sugar in to drink earlier. Which I could but can’t be ar*ed to

[Journeyman]

11 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think that is why I kept using IanH's original formulae:  Because it gave you values closer to the amounts quoted for the recipes by Coopers.

The only ones I have altered are the Mr Beer ones and they were not there to begin with. It's no biggie as I doubt I will be buying any, any time soon as I prefer larger (not lager  ) brews to fill the kegs. This addition was solely because the esteemed Jamie sent me a couple of tins he didn't want so I thought I'd try to complete the SS.

All the other figures are original - I've added some grains I like to use, such as a couple of Gladfields but the rest is all original. Oh and I changed the %'age for Nottingham based on Lallemand's figures.

[slp]

so after going down the rabbit hole that is refractometers vs alcohol i think ill go back to using just a hydrometer for FG

 

[ozdevil]

25 minutes ago, slp said:

so after going down the rabbit hole that is refractometers vs alcohol i think ill go back to using just a hydrometer for FG

 

taking a final  gravity reading by hydrometer is far better then the refractometer  i think its due to the carbonation whats in the beer at this stage some scientific person will know and tell us

refractometer is great up to the starting gravity   and is pretty well close to the hydrometer.

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

22 hours ago, slp said:

so after going down the rabbit hole that is refractometers vs alcohol i think ill go back to using just a hydrometer for FG

 

Looks like you found the reason for you apparently high FG's.

I think that refractometer readings are affected by alcohol in the finishing beer.  There is a way to convert the readings to actual gravity, but I do not know it.

I still sometimes use my refractometer as an indicator of when fermentation is finished.  Just like a hydrometer, the readings will stabilise.  The advantage is that you only need a very small sample.  Once the refractometer reading is stable, take a hydrometer reading and this will be your  actual FG.

[Red devil 44]

Just a quick question regarding FG.

I have my double batch of Neon Haze IPA fermenting.

It’s 8 days into fermentation, and the airlock is still bubbling away, I have upped the temperature from 19 to 21 degrees to try and finish it off.

‘The part that I am scratching my head about is the OG was 1037, and it’s now at 1002, yet still fermenting away, giving me a current ABV of 4.59 % ?

Never had a brew go that low in FG before, do I just leave it to carry on doing it’s thing ?

Thats what I’m thinking as I am normally going into CC on day 8 or 9.

‘I’ve brewed the Neon Haze before and usually ended up with FG of 1010, maybe it’s because it’s a double batch ? Although I would of thought that shouldn’t change things ?

I used 3 packs of Lallemand American East Coast Yeast

Any advice appreciated brewers. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Red devil 44

[Pickles Jones]

 

2 hours ago, Red devil 44 said:

I used 3 packs of Lallemand American East Coast Yeast

 Lallemand American East Coast Yeast  is not a diastatic yeast. Has something else got into batch.

Does it smell and taste OK.

[Red devil 44]

28 minutes ago, Pickles Jones said:

 

 Lallemand American East Coast Yeast  is not a diastatic yeast. Has something else got into batch.

Does it smell and taste OK.

Smells & tastes very fruity, I just took a fresh reading, now reads 1006 

[Red devil 44]

I took a third reading with a different Hydrometer, 1010 now, that seems to be more on the money.

Time to purchase a new second Hydrometer. 

[slp]

2 minutes ago, Red devil 44 said:

I took a third reading with a different Hydrometer, 1010 now, that seems to be more on the money.

Time to purchase a new second Hydrometer. 

yeah i was just about to say your hydrometer is broken or your water is not at 1.000

[Panther Branch Brewing]

There are some web sites out there that have formulae for converting refractometer readings after fermentation begins. 

 

I just stick with a hydrometer. At most I lose 200-300ml of beer when measuring. It's not really lost though because I drink the sample.