Brewing in the tropics

[drowningnotwaving]

I live in the tropics ( only 1 degree 15 minutes from the equator) and I have a couple of questions regarding brewing temperature.  I have recently started home brewing again after a 30 year break. As far as I could find pretty much every post both here and on the interweb about brewing temp discusses keeping the FV warm.  I have the opposite problem.....

The entire interior of house does not get below about 28 Deg C (sometimes gets above 30 Deg C ) year round and is made out of concrete, so there is a lot of thermal mass in the dwelling.  I have set up my home brew gear in an unused bathroom (probably the coldest place and is fairly stable at about 28 deg C).  The cold water out of the tap ranges from 28 to about 31 Deg C.

My first attempt a week or so ago did not ferment at all.  Nada, nothing nil.  Although my research indicated that yeast does not die until about 50 deg C, I figured I must have killed it some how.

2nd attempt this last weekend went better after consulting with the local home brew supply shop, who advised refrigerating some water (I cooled 6L overnight, that was all I cold fit into the firdge) and that I should be prepared to use ice to try and get the temp down below 24 Deg C or so at least if I could. I managed to get the temp down to about 22 C for the full 23L batch initially and draped with FV with a wet towel and kept a fan running (and kept the towel wet) to try and keep the temp as low as possible, but it drifted up to about 26 C over the next 12 hours.

Fermentation started and was very rapid for about 30 hours and then suddenly stopped (FV temp had risen to 28 Dec G and remains stable at that point).  It is about 72 hours in now and there has not been a bubble through the water seal in about 24 hours.

A couple of questions:

1) Is is likely that I've managed to kill the yeast (possibly a 2nd time)? Or is this simply just really fast primary fermentation?

2) Are there any suggestions to try and keep the FV at a more appropriate temperature?  A dedicated temperature controlled to 21 or 22 C fridge is not an option.  And air conditioning the brewing space isn't really and option either.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

 

[ben 10]

20 minutes ago, drowningnotwaving said:

1) Is is likely that I've managed to kill the yeast (possibly a 2nd time)? Or is this simply just really fast primary fermentation?

Not dead, really fast, check the SG with a hydrometer.

21 minutes ago, drowningnotwaving said:

2) Are there any suggestions to try and keep the FV at a more appropriate temperature?  A dedicated temperature controlled to 21 or 22 C fridge is not an option.  And air conditioning the brewing space isn't really and option either.

I'd suggest different yeast ,=mate. Try a Kveik or Saison. You can get VERY good results from those at ambient.

28°c is perfectly fine.

What beers do you like buying and what ingredients can you get from you HB shop?

I live in the tropics but 800 metres above sea level, so the dry season is quite cool. I do not ferment in a fridge and do all at ambient

 

 

[iBooz2]

@drowningnotwaving  Can you get your local home brew shop (LHBS) to supply you some Voss Kveik Yeast?  It will ferment out fast at high temps.

And as Green Blob pointed out, how do you know you killed your yeast on first and subsequent brews. Pitched too hot? No krausen or condensation in FV?  Did you take gravity measurements before and after the prognosis of your brew?

Edited July 26, 2021 by iBooz2

[drowningnotwaving]

6 minutes ago, Green Blob said:

Not dead, really fast, check the SG with a hydrometer.

I'd suggest different yeast ,=mate. Try a Kveik or Saison. You can get VERY good results from those at ambient.

28°c is perfectly fine.

What beers do you like buying and what ingredients can you get from you HB shop?

I live in the tropics but 800 metres above sea level, so the dry season is quite cool. I do not ferment in a fridge and do all at ambient

 

 

Thank you for the helpful reply.

I  used the Thomas Coopers Brew A IPA extract and accompanying yeast for both attempts.  The first attempt did not activate at all, which caused me to think that  killed it.  Sounds like the 2nd attempt was just fast, good to know.

Next attempt I'll see if I can get one of the yeasts you suggested, thank you for the tip.

In the distant past when I lived in Oz I just used Coopers extract kits and they took the typical 6 to 7 day fermentation time like clock work so didn't even use a hydrometer in the end as there was no point and I didn't like letting the "CO2 cap" escape prior to bottling.  Sounds like testing may be in order as I get a handle on what's happening here.

I'll probably get a bit more adventurous with cooking malts and hopping as this progresses.  I figured simply starting with a standard "known to work" Coopers extract was the way to get restarted making my own beer.

Appreciate the help, cheers!

[ben 10]

1 minute ago, drowningnotwaving said:

Next attempt I'll see if I can get one of the yeasts you suggested, thank you for the tip.

They do have distinctive flavours that come with them though.

Mangrove Jacks Saison yeasts are quite neutral.

[drowningnotwaving]

16 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

@drowningnotwaving  Can you get your local home brew shop (LHBS) to supply you some Voss Kveik Yeast?  It will ferment out fast at high temps.

And as Green Blob pointed out, how do you know you killed your yeast on first and subsequent brews. Pitched too hot? No krausen or condensation in FV?  Did you take gravity measurements before and after the prognosis of your brew?

@iBooz2 Therein lies the core of my question: I don't know if I killed it or not.  I'm more confident now that the 2nd attempt wasn't killed.  But the first attempt did even start fermenting, which could just be bad luck, or more likely lack of skill.  In hindsight the first attempt could have been pitched too hot.  There was not krausen or condensation in FV.   Everything was cleaned and treated with appropriately diluted StarSan. Maybe I went a bit hard on the StarSan in the first attempt.

Edited July 26, 2021 by drowningnotwaving
fat fingers

[drowningnotwaving]

21 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

@drowningnotwaving  Can you get your local home brew shop (LHBS) to supply you some Voss Kveik Yeast?  It will ferment out fast at high temps.

And as Green Blob pointed out, how do you know you killed your yeast on first and subsequent brews. Pitched too hot? No krausen or condensation in FV?  Did you take gravity measurements before and after the prognosis of your brew?

Forgot to say that I the first attempt also had a 2nd batch of yeast pitched after a couple of days of no fermentation.  Still no evidence of fermentation with the 2nd lot of yeast and this was pitched when the temp was a stable 28 Deg C.

[iBooz2]

@drowningnotwaving Ok probably not your fault just bad luck as you say.  The kit can was most likely stored way too warm and for way too long before you purchased it so the yeast pack/s were stuffed anyway.

@Green Blob  bloody hell GB,  800 metres up Ay!  I hope those incoming jet pilots from down south know that you are breeding mountain goats up there in among them clouds in your neck of the woods.  I sure hope they know where they are going when they are passing by and stay overhead. 

I know you don't have to worry about south bound jets as they head east out to sea for a bit to by-pass all that tiger country.

Edited July 26, 2021 by iBooz2

[ChristinaS1]

If you are not a fan of the flavour of Saisons and Belgians, and you don't want to be limited to just Kveik yeast, another option might be is to ferment under pressure.

It is important to remember that after your beer is bottled, storing it at your kind of ambient temps is going to make it age fast. Despite the temptation, probably not a good idea to build up huge stocks. Keep your pipeline small. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[drowningnotwaving]

6 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

If you are not a fan of the flavour of Saisons and Belgians, and you don't want to be limited to just Kveik yeast, another option might be is to ferment under pressure.

It is important to remember that after your beer is bottled, storing it at your kind of ambient temps is going to make it age fast. Despite the temptation, probably not a good idea to build up huge stocks. Keep your pipeline small. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Thank you for the guidance re storage and pipeline, much appreciated.

One step at a time re pressure fermentation

[drowningnotwaving]

@Green Blob @iBooz2 @ChristinaS1

First off thank you for your guidance and help recently, it is much appreciated.

I thought I'd do a follow up on my most recent brew (I'll call it Brew 3) that incorporated that insight. 

Last Saturday I popped down to my local home brew shop (iBrew in Singapore) and picked up a tin of Pale Ale extract, 1kg of Light Malt and some Kveik Voss yeast. Note that I want more of a "session" beer, hence only 1kg of Malt.  Re inside ambient air and water temperature, we had a bit of rain of the last couple of weeks so both had dropped a bit down to the 26 DegC range from 28 to a bit higher around the time of my original post. All equipment had been thoroughly cleaned and sanitized with StarSan at recommended dilution which I had allowed to dry (i.e. no wet residue in the fermenter) before initiating the brew on Sunday morning, 21L total volume. 

Based on my research on Kveik yeasts and Voss in particular, I actually lifted the temperature of the fermenter liquid to 31 C.  Voss was hydrated per the the instructions on the pack.  Measured SG was 1040.

I will admit to some disappointment when nothing "appeared" to be happening.  No bubbles through the water seal, stable brew temperature ( I was kind of expecting a slight increase due to fermentation under way ), not much build up of krausen visible through the (opaque) walls of the fermenter.

Monday morning, still no apparent action.  Brew 2 (where I had lowered the temperature to use the Coopers yeast and turned out quite nicely) had at least had some water seal bubbling action. As iBrew is closed Mondays, I popped down for a chat after work on Tuesday to try and figure out what was happening.  There had been no apparent action betwen Monday and Tuesday either "but" there was sludge in the bottom of the fermenter.  I had not yet measured current SG at this point as I again came to the conclusion I had another dud brew.  Had a good chat with Raymond at iBrew who was almost  as concerned as me (he thought he might have a batch of bad yeast) and actually comped be a new tin of extract 1kg of malt and another pack of yeast and some specific instructions and a request to provide some feedback on how that went.

Anyway, I measured the SG when I got home Tuesday and low and behold Brew 3 was at 1010, within the range of a brew being completed or very close too it.  I threw in 1/2tsp yeast activator, got some minimal action at the surface of the fermenter before I put the lid back on to let it run for another 24 hours (still no bubbles through seal).  Retested lasted night and it had dropped marginally to 1009/1010 at which point I decided that it was finished and bottled the brew up.

Some observations/thoughts:

1) It seems like Brew 3 finished fermenting completely in somewhere between 24 and 36 hours.  Possibly as few as 18 to 24 hours (ie while I was sleeping Sunday night)

2) I'm still slightly flummoxed by the lack of bubbles through the water seal. 

3) I now think that Brew 1 (the main subject of my original query) may have also simply been (rapidly) fully primary fermented and I missed it happening, as Brew 1 had he same sludge in the bottom of the fermenter as Brew 3 (but I didn't have a hydrometer when I did Brew 1 and Brew 2 as 30 years ago I didn't use one and it all worked out fine ).  I failed to note the exact yeast (Duh!) I used with Brew 1, but there is a reasonable chance that it was also Voss as iBrew sells a fair bit of it to people who don't chill their fermenters.

Before you ask: yes the lid has a rubber seal around the rim and was screwed on tight and also the bubbler seal was firmly sealed through its grommet in the lid.

Apologies for the long rambling post, but I figured follow up was appropriate.  Thanks again for your earlier guidance! 

I also paid iBrew for the ingredients they initially comped me a there was no actual issue.  Great customer service and assistance from Raymond.

cheers,

Bill

[Tone boy]

Hey @drowningnotwaving sounds like you’re getting into it!

How did brew 1 & 2 taste?

1) I reckon the yeast has smashed it while you were sleeping and dreaming of new beers to brew. With Voss at that temp it’s probably just ripped through it. 
2) The lack of bubbles- I use an airlock too.  I have done brews where the lid has been screwed on tight and the airlock grommet in place but for whatever reason there was a leak and no air going through the airlock. Sounds like this may have been the case with yours. Sometimes if you screw the lid on too tight that can happen. To test for a leak just press down lightly on the lid and the water in the airlock should move with the slight change in pressure and stay there (not equalize). Don’t stress about it. You can check for other signs of fermentation if you’re worried like testing SG. Don’t remove the lid unnecessary though. 
 

Maybe check the big rubber seal in the lid is seated all the way around by pushing firmly into place before your next brew

[drowningnotwaving]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:35 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

If you are not a fan of the flavour of Saisons and Belgians, and you don't want to be limited to just Kveik yeast, another option might be is to ferment under pressure.

It is important to remember that after your beer is bottled, storing it at your kind of ambient temps is going to make it age fast. Despite the temptation, probably not a good idea to build up huge stocks. Keep your pipeline small. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

@ChristinaS1 I've been pondering your "kind of ambient temps is going to make it age fast" and "keep your pipeline small" comment and suggestion and was wondering what "storing it for too long" might mean in terms of actual time frames. For example, I've got 9 x 740mL bottles from Brew 2 un-drunk (ie ~1 month after bottling) and a two week wait after bottling prior to popping the top of the first of that batch.

Are you suggesting that this is the right sort of timeline or can I/should I let them bottle ferment/age for (for example) at least 4 weeks but ideally no more than 8 weeks (insert suggested max time in bottle here ).

When I home brewed "a long time ago in a land far far away" at Moomba, I'd start a brew at the beginning of my 2 week hitch, have i bottled before I departed and then drink it when I got back 2 hitches later (6 weeks after bottling).  Rinse and repeat each hitch.  But that beer was stored in the wardrobe of an air conditioned room, probably in the 21 C range.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[drowningnotwaving]

12 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Hey @drowningnotwaving sounds like you’re getting into it!

How did brew 1 & 2 taste?

1) I reckon the yeast has smashed it while you were sleeping and dreaming of new beers to brew. With Voss at that temp it’s probably just ripped through it. 
2) The lack of bubbles- I use an airlock too.  I have done brews where the lid has been screwed on tight and the airlock grommet in place but for whatever reason there was a leak and no air going through the airlock. Sounds like this may have been the case with yours. Sometimes if you screw the lid on too tight that can happen. To test for a leak just press down lightly on the lid and the water in the airlock should move with the slight change in pressure and stay there (not equalize). Don’t stress about it. You can check for other signs of fermentation if you’re worried like testing SG. Don’t remove the lid unnecessary though. 
 

Maybe check the big rubber seal in the lid is seated all the way around by pushing firmly into place before your next brew

@Tone boy Brew 1 never made it to bottles as I figured I'd screwed it up.  Hindsight says I probably didn't screw it up.   Brew 2 was great, if not quite as much head as I might have liked with larger than expected bubbles, but I did start drinking them after only 2 weeks in the bottle.....   Head is getting better as I work my way through them.

Thanks for the suggestion re airlock and lid checks.  It's a fairly heavy duty fermentor, (not Cooper's standard issue) and there isn't much flex in the lid, but it's a good suggestion and I'll give that a whirl.  Noted on the screwing the lid on too tight possibly doing more harm than good in terms of lid seal deformation, cheers for the heads up. 

I bought some additional bottles recently with a view to getting a "bit" more bottle time on subsequent brews.

I appreciate your comments, thank you

Edited August 26, 2021 by drowningnotwaving
spelling error

[iBooz2]

1 hour ago, drowningnotwaving said:

@Tone boy Brew 1 never made it to bottles as I figured I'd screwed it up.  Hindsight says I probably didn't screw it up.   Brew 2 was great, if not quite as much head as I might have liked with larger than expected bubbles, but I did start drinking them after only 2 weeks in the bottle.....   Head is getting better as I work my way through them.

Thanks for the suggestion re airlock and lid checks.  It's a fairly heavy duty fermentor, (not Cooper's standard issue) and there isn't much flex in the lid, but it's a good suggestion and I'll give that a whirl.  Noted on the screwing the lid on too tight possibly doing more harm than good in terms of lid seal deformation, cheers for the heads up. 

@drowningnotwaving Perhaps try the @MUZZY Method with sugar cubes if using PET bottles.

And as @Tone boy suggests if you push on the belly of the FV you should be able to force a bubble or two out of your air lock if it has no leaks.  Just make sure you use sanitiser in your air lock not plain water because when you stop squeezing the belly of the FV, the air lock will also suck back the possibly contaminated air lock water back into your FV and beer.  Remember too, remove your airlock beforehand if you need to pick up and move your FV because of the same reason, it will suck muck back into your FV and beer when you move it.

A smear of food grade lubricant all around the rubber "O" ring and grommet will help it seal too.

Edited August 26, 2021 by iBooz2

[Journeyman]

One other point you seemed concerned about and shouldn't - Starsan and Stellarsan are both 'no-rinse' sanitisers so will not effect your brews. In the active phase of ferment the yeast eats them.

[drowningnotwaving]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

@drowningnotwaving Perhaps try the @MUZZY Method with sugar cubes if using PET bottles.

And as @Tone boy suggests if you push on the belly of the FV you should be able to force a bubble or two out of your air lock if it has no leaks.  Just make sure you use sanitiser in your air lock not plain water because when you stop squeezing the belly of the FV, the air lock will also suck back the possibly contaminated air lock water back into your FV and beer.  Remember too, remove your airlock beforehand if you need to pick up and move your FV because of the same reason, it will suck muck back into your FV and beer when you move it.

A smear of food grade lubricant all around the rubber "O" ring and grommet will help it seal too.

Cheers mate, I had a look at the Muzzy Method today, certainly worth a look.  Noted on airlock precautions, thank you.

[ChristinaS1]

7 hours ago, drowningnotwaving said:

@ChristinaS1 I've been pondering your "kind of ambient temps is going to make it age fast" and "keep your pipeline small" comment and suggestion and was wondering what "storing it for too long" might mean in terms of actual time frames. For example, I've got 9 x 740mL bottles from Brew 2 un-drunk (ie ~1 month after bottling) and a two week wait after bottling prior to popping the top of the first of that batch.

Are you suggesting that this is the right sort of timeline or can I/should I let them bottle ferment/age for (for example) at least 4 weeks but ideally no more than 8 weeks (insert suggested max time in bottle here ).

When I home brewed "a long time ago in a land far far away" at Moomba, I'd start a brew at the beginning of my 2 week hitch, have i bottled before I departed and then drink it when I got back 2 hitches later (6 weeks after bottling).  Rinse and repeat each hitch.  But that beer was stored in the wardrobe of an air conditioned room, probably in the 21 C range.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi @drowningnotwaving. Studies show a beer stored at 30C will age twice as fast as one aged at 20C. A beer stored at 20C will age twice as fast as one aged at 10C. A beer stored at 10C will age twice as fast as one aged at just above 0C.

The main concern is hoppy brews with whirlpool and dry hop additions (APA, IPA, DIPA, NEIPA), as hop aroma and flavour fade fast. Before I started kegging, I stored my bottles at around 18-20C and found aroma and flavour beginning to fade at around the five week point (the first two of which it was carbonating, so I was only drinking it for three weeks) and it was a shadow of its former self by 8 weeks in the bottle. Now I put my kegs in the fridge immediately after packaging and I find the change in flavour and aroma is minimal by the time I drain the keg. This is partly due to cold storage but also due to the fact that I can start drinking it 12 days sooner: it only takes two days to carbonate in the keg vs two weeks in bottles....You should start drinking dry hopped beers as soon as they are carbonated. If your ambient temps are up in the 30s, your bottles may carbonate in as little as one week.

For malty styles with no dry hopping (Blondes, Cream Ales, English Bitters, Irish Reds, stouts, porters) speedy aging can actually be a good thing.  Bitterness / IBUs also diminishes with aging, but only by about one third, after which the less stable IBU compounds have degraded and only the more durable ones are left. So the beer will taste more mellow (= less bitter) as it ages, which can be desirable in malty styles. 

Alcohol is a preservative. If you want to age a malty beer at high ambient temps longer than three months, make sure the ABV is at least 5.5%. If you want to age it 6 months, have the ABV 6.5%.  That will help it age gracefully.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited August 26, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

@drowningnotwaving The type of bottles used make a difference too. Glass is better than plastic. Brown is better than other colours. Crown caps are better than screw tops or flip-tops. 

For a long time I used Grolsch bottles. While they were glass, they were also green and flip-top, two negatives. I was careful to keep them in the dark, but the flip-tops were a problem. In later years I slowly switched over to brown glass crown caps and noticed the hop aroma lasted a bit (maybe a week or so) longer.

That being said the kind of bottles used is not as important as storing the beer cold after carbonation.  That is going to make the biggest difference to getting your hop aroma and flavour to last.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Tone boy]

58 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

If your ambient temps are up in the 30s, your bottles may carbonate in as little as one week.

Probably quicker if you’re using kveik yeast…

 

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

That will help it age gracefully.

Just like me!!

[drowningnotwaving]

@ChristinaS1 please accept my apologies for not replying sooner, its been a little busy over the last month or so.

I really appreciate your guidance, thank you.  Right now a brew (bottled in brown PETs) is lasting about a month before I move onto the next brew in the queue, so the last bottle of a given brew is about 7 to 8 weeks old.  I have been trying to increase the bottle age from 2 weeks to 4 weeks before I started drinking them.

Sounds like I might need to start drinking faster and get back closer to the 2 to 3 week in the bottle stage to start drinking a given brew.

@Tone boy Yes, I'm using the Kveik ale yeast at the moment and have found that the PET bottles are firm after 4 or 5 days.  I did find that after only two weeks in the bottle that the head and secondary fermentation carbonation was a bit weak, which improved after about 4 weeks in the bottle.  It could well be a combination of the Muzzy Method and shorter (2 to 3 week) bottle time may well be in order.

Thanks again for the comments and guidance to all those that have offered insight!

[Oldbloke]

Been brewing for years. Some basic, general info. I'm in a cooler area.

Generally yeast will die off at about 30c - 32c.

I generally need to keep fv warm. I also use the wet towel and fan to keep cool in hot weather.

Pitch yeast from 20c to 28c it always starts.

I try to brew mid 20s, but don't stress.

I've done heaps of brewing at 28c. Should be fine, but very fast.

Always bottle on day 7 or 8

Brown glass bottles with crown seals are best.

Mine age at least 3 months before I drink them. Ales and stouts are best at about 6-10 months.

Always just use the coopers yeast provided.

I bulk prime now. By adding 2 litres of sugar (250g) syrup to the barrel, stir in gently. Wait 10 minutes then bottle. But only fill FV to 21 litres at the beginning. Quicker and easier.

 

[Bullswool]

On 7/26/2021 at 6:36 PM, drowningnotwaving said:

The entire interior of house does not get below about 28 Deg C (sometimes gets above 30 Deg C ) year round and is made out of concrete, so there is a lot of thermal mass in the dwelling.  I have set up my home brew gear in an unused bathroom (probably the coldest place and is fairly stable at about 28 deg C).  The cold water out of the tap ranges from 28 to about 31 Deg C....

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

 

Hi, I will add my two cents on the topic of brewing in a hotter climate although I’m still a bit of a novice brewer. I live in QLD, and it’s currently about 25-28*C during the day and I don’t have an effective means to cool my fermenter.

I stumbled across this recipe while looking for a home brew that would yield a higher alcoholic beer:

https://mangrovejacks.com/a/blog/recipe-summer-saison

Note two things:

1. It uses Saison yeast as mentioned by others above,
2. They recommend pitching the yeast at 26*. Then ferment for 2 weeks at between 26-32*

After I saw this recipe I immediately sourced the ingredients and set to work. I started fermenting Saturday night 09/10/2021.

OG was 1.035 – I was somewhat disappointed about how low this was. It means I’m unlikely to get the higher alcohol I was hoping to achieve. The wort naturally maintained a temperature of about 24-27*.

FG was about 1.005 which I was very happy with. I bottle this brew on Monday 25/10/2021.

Still a couple of weeks before I can comment on taste etc. I’ll keep you updated.

Anyways, just wanted to point out that this recipe recommends a temp range that might suit where you live.

[Geoff S]

Coopers recipes has a hot weather brew on page 19 a viking something using Kveik.

[Shamus O'Sean]

10 hours ago, Geoff S said:

Coopers recipes has a hot weather brew on page 19 a viking something using Kveik.

Yep. Viking Kveik IPA