Beer tasting chemically

[Werner potgieter]

Hi All, 

this is my 5th batch that Im brewing. The last two brews has tasted pretty chemically. The after taste especially. 
 

Any of you had a similar experience? I use a sanitizer same as before and had no issues. Im brewing just a coopers larger now as a test. 
 

my previous batch was a coopers pale ale, and accidently left the heat belt on for two long and the brew reached 32degrees... oops. Thought this was the issue for the chemical taste. 
 

now with the larger, after six days of fermenting I also tasted it, and I can still taste the chemical, faintly. 
 

Look forward to hearing from you. 
cheers

[Journeyman]

43 minutes ago, Werner potgieter said:

my previous batch was a coopers pale ale, and accidently left the heat belt on for two long and the brew reached 32degrees... oops. Thought this was the issue for the chemical taste. 
now with the larger, after six days of fermenting I also tasted it, and I can still taste the chemical, faintly. 

I've been pretty lucky with my brews so not sure about what causes which odd tastes. When you say 'chemical' what sort of taste is it? 

I did have a brew I heated up - got up in the AM to find it at 36° - followed the advice from here to take it back to normal 18° till FG and then left it at 20° for a few days and the yeast cleaned it up.

What is your process? It can be useful to boost the beer up a couple of ° for a few days at the end of ferment to let the yeast do housekeeping, particularly with lagers.

[Werner potgieter]

41 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

I've been pretty lucky with my brews so not sure about what causes which odd tastes. When you say 'chemical' what sort of taste is it? 

I did have a brew I heated up - got up in the AM to find it at 36° - followed the advice from here to take it back to normal 18° till FG and then left it at 20° for a few days and the yeast cleaned it up.

What is your process? It can be useful to boost the beer up a couple of ° for a few days at the end of ferment to let the yeast do housekeeping, particularly with lagers.

Hi mate, 

 

Thanks for the reply. Usually i keep my brew around the 21 degree mark and test the SG at day six and day seven etc until stable. 
 

however im wondering if the temp is too low perhaps? What do you mean by housekeeping? 
 

Regarding the taste, pretty hard to describe, its not a chlorine taste... 

 

thanks!

[Journeyman]

2 minutes ago, Werner potgieter said:

Thanks for the reply. Usually i keep my brew around the 21 degree mark and test the SG at day six and day seven etc until stable. 
however im wondering if the temp is too low perhaps? What do you mean by housekeeping? 
Regarding the taste, pretty hard to describe, its not a chlorine taste... 

21° is OK although most of us would think it a little high for Ales. It is WAY too high for a lager, which are normally fermented around 10° - 12°. I doubt 21° would produce off tastes but try fermenting a couple of ° lower.

When yeast gets to work, it doesn't just make alcohol and CO2 as a single process, it goes through stages. That's why you see krausen early on and then it goes away. The first stage is yeast making more yeast, which is why you should aerate the wort thoroughly when you pitch the yeast. (and never after that  ) Then it forms krausen from the high activity phase where it is converting the easy sugars. After they run out the yeast changes stride and goes after the less convertibles but this doesn't make lots of froth so sometimes people think the ferment is over - the SG tells the story though.

In all of this, there are byproducts products, including things like esters, diacetyl etc. By boosting the temp a few degrees AFTER FG, the yeast can go do cleanup on many of these, giving a better beer. For your lagers this is a more important step than for ales - at the end, boost the temp a few ° and give it a day or so before cold crash.

[Tricky Micky]

1 hour ago, Werner potgieter said:

Any of you had a similar experience? I use a sanitizer same as before and had no issues. Im brewing just a coopers larger now as a test. 

Muzzy!

[Malter White]

56 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Muzzy!

Stop it, Mick!!! Stop it right now. There's already enough angst on the forum without you stirring the hornet's nest.

[Werner potgieter]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

21° is OK although most of us would think it a little high for Ales. It is WAY too high for a lager, which are normally fermented around 10° - 12°. I doubt 21° would produce off tastes but try fermenting a couple of ° lower.

When yeast gets to work, it doesn't just make alcohol and CO2 as a single process, it goes through stages. That's why you see krausen early on and then it goes away. The first stage is yeast making more yeast, which is why you should aerate the wort thoroughly when you pitch the yeast. (and never after that  ) Then it forms krausen from the high activity phase where it is converting the easy sugars. After they run out the yeast changes stride and goes after the less convertibles but this doesn't make lots of froth so sometimes people think the ferment is over - the SG tells the story though.

In all of this, there are byproducts products, including things like esters, diacetyl etc. By boosting the temp a few degrees AFTER FG, the yeast can go do cleanup on many of these, giving a better beer. For your lagers this is a more important step than for ales - at the end, boost the temp a few ° and give it a day or so before cold crash.

Mate this has helped alot! Thank you. Geez so low in temp? The label on the can when you buy the brew states 21-27degrees... 

 

so between 10 - 12 is the go and then go up to say 20 for the last push (house keeping) after FG has been reached? 
 

thank you for all the help! 

[Werner potgieter]

1 hour ago, MUZZY said:

Stop it, Mick!!! Stop it right now. There's already enough angst on the forum without you stirring the hornet's nest.

Haha what are you two on about? New to the game so dont understand the reference... 

[Instigator]

Werner, you need to tell us your recipe/s. Personally I suspect you are using too much dextrose or sugar, but without the recipe no one can offer serious help.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Instigator

[Werner potgieter]

27 minutes ago, Instigator said:

Werner, you need to tell us your recipe/s. Personally I suspect you are using too much dextrose or sugar, but without the recipe no one can offer serious help.

Hi mate, 

 

its the dead set suggested brew ingredients and quantities that coopers gives/provides. 
 

so the larger Tin can (with yeast at the top) and they suggest using the brew enhancer 2 (one box/packet) and then i mix it all together as directed by the coopers DIY tutorial on youtube and the back of the label on the tin can. 
 

thanks for the help. Keen on brewing my own beer but they aren't tasting so good even though I am following the recipe to the T

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, Werner potgieter said:

Mate this has helped alot! Thank you. Geez so low in temp? The label on the can when you buy the brew states 21-27degrees... 

so between 10 - 12 is the go and then go up to say 20 for the last push (house keeping) after FG has been reached? 

The can uses an Ale yeast - if you really want a lager (note spelling - Muzzy has a touch of OCD & has a thread where a bit of fun went on about it, so when people spell it 'larger' or get other smelling pistakes, we tend to make sure he sees them  Because we're like that...  )

If you're not getting a specific lager yeast, don't take the brew down past about 16° and then up to 20° for the clean up.

The recipe on the can is... um... flawed as far as most of us are concerned. We are not sure why Coopers has that on there as we think it would turn a lot of people off home brew.

Temps as above for ales, lower for lagers. Most of us brew ales, stouts etc at 18°.

Enhancers - they are OK, but far better if you get yourself some LDME (Light Dry Malt Extract) or LME (Liquid Malt Extract) and use those instead of the brew enhancers. Most LHBS (Local Home Brew Shop) will have LDME cheaper than the packets in BigW etc. Both these will give your beer more flavour and body than dextrose or sugar.

Next is hops. Big subject so do some reading on here and elsewhere, but basically you can boil hops to add bitterness or add them later to add flavours and aroma - look for terms like whirlpool or flameout (at the extract can level this means adding the hops while the wort is hot and just before you start filling the FV. Dry hops is usually done after the most active part of ferment has completed. I make a hops tea in a coffee plunger - 20 mins in 85° water then plunge and pour into the FV.

Note you don't need to do this NOW - this is just so you can see where your next steps are leading...  

Then it's a vertical plunge into the rabbit hole.  

[iBooz2]

44 minutes ago, Werner potgieter said:

its the dead set suggested brew ingredients and quantities that coopers gives/provides. 
so the larger Tin can (with yeast at the top) and they suggest using the brew enhancer 2 (one box/packet) and then i mix it all together as directed by the coopers DIY tutorial on youtube and the back of the label on the tin can. 

The Coopers yeast supplied on top of the lager tin is a blend of Ale and lager yeast in an attempt to make it fool proof for beginner brewers.  I also think Coopers instructions are a bit wide on the mark re the temps and brewed mine as per the graphic below.  As most agree ferment it at about 18 C at the start then allow in to warm up to say 22 near the end.

Your ferment starting off at those higher temperatures would have been hurried from the yeast point of view and that taste you are sensing is most likely Diacetyl.

It can also be caused by a bacterial infection.  What cleaning and sanitising chemicals did you use?  Was it a no-rinse sanitiser or one that requires rinsing?

The ongoing joke with Muzzy is the way some people misspell lager as larger or their auto correct/pre-preemptive text brings them unstuck. 

EDIT: I see Mark has beaten me to it.

Cheers - AL

Edited June 9, 2021 by iBooz2

[Werner potgieter]

21 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

The can uses an Ale yeast - if you really want a lager (note spelling - Muzzy has a touch of OCD & has a thread where a bit of fun went on about it, so when people spell it 'larger' or get other smelling pistakes, we tend to make sure he sees them  Because we're like that...  )

If you're not getting a specific lager yeast, don't take the brew down past about 16° and then up to 20° for the clean up.

The recipe on the can is... um... flawed as far as most of us are concerned. We are not sure why Coopers has that on there as we think it would turn a lot of people off home brew.

Temps as above for ales, lower for lagers. Most of us brew ales, stouts etc at 18°.

Enhancers - they are OK, but far better if you get yourself some LDME (Light Dry Malt Extract) or LME (Liquid Malt Extract) and use those instead of the brew enhancers. Most LHBS (Local Home Brew Shop) will have LDME cheaper than the packets in BigW etc. Both these will give your beer more flavour and body than dextrose or sugar.

Next is hops. Big subject so do some reading on here and elsewhere, but basically you can boil hops to add bitterness or add them later to add flavours and aroma - look for terms like whirlpool or flameout (at the extract can level this means adding the hops while the wort is hot and just before you start filling the FV. Dry hops is usually done after the most active part of ferment has completed. I make a hops tea in a coffee plunger - 20 mins in 85° water then plunge and pour into the FV.

Note you don't need to do this NOW - this is just so you can see where your next steps are leading...  

Then it's a vertical plunge into the rabbit hole.  

You guys are legends! Helping so quickly. Man I reckon I need to sit down with someone who is well versed in all of this. I love an Ale and just want to make a consistent nice brew which is stocked in the cupboard for BBQs etc. 

[Werner potgieter]

20 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

The Coopers yeast supplied on top of the lager tin is a blend of Ale and lager yeast in an attempt to make it fool proof for beginner brewers.  I also think Coopers instructions are a bit wide on the mark re the temps and brewed mine as per the graphic below.  As most agree ferment it at about 18 C at the start then allow in to warm up to say 22 near the end.

Your ferment starting off at those higher temperatures would have been hurried from the yeast point of view and that taste you are sensing is most likely Diacetyl.

It can also be caused by a bacterial infection.  What cleaning and sanitising chemicals did you use?  Was it a no-rinse sanitiser or one that requires rinsing?

The ongoing joke with Muzzy is the way some people misspell lager as larger or their auto correct/pre-preemptive text brings them unstuck. 

EDIT: I see Mark has beaten me to it.

Cheers - AL

Thanks mate. Can see that you guys are passionate about all this. I hope to get there too. 
 

so with this hurried approach, can the brew be saved from the yeast infection(sounds nasty)? 
 

the sanitiser is a non-rinse one but this time i rinsed it anyway just to make sure. The brand is StellarSan Sanitizer , photo attached. 

[Marty_G]

I can tell you with great confidence the chemical tastes are fusel and phenolics that come from too high a ferment temp.  32c is way too high and it hit that right at the critical stage when ferment 1st starts. It is during that stage that most of the "off" compounds are made. 

 

Best way to stop it is to use temperature control or place FV in a spot that has stable stable temp.  invthe low 20sC

 

The yeast in the Coopers Lager is not a lager yeast it is an ale yeast so atemp of around 20c will be great. If using a prper lager yeast like in the Eurolager kit it needs to be at 10-12c.   However, a popular lager yeast W34/70 can be "clean" at 15c. 

 

 

[iBooz2]

1 hour ago, Werner potgieter said:

the sanitiser is a non-rinse one but this time i rinsed it anyway just to make sure. The brand is StellarSan Sanitizer , photo attached. 

 

Yep that sanitiser is the way to go when mixed to the proper ratio and definitely do not rinse it afterwards because you are just undoing all the good work of the sanitiser.

[iBooz2]

1 hour ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

I can tell you with great confidence the chemical tastes are fusel and phenolics that come from too high a ferment temp. 

The yeast in the Coopers Lager is not a lager yeast it is an ale yeast 

Yep most likely correct Marty, too high a starting ferment temp.

And yes, my bad.  You are correct the OS lager kit can comes with an ale yeast, I got confused with the OS yeasts that used to be supplied with the APA and the Cerveza kit cans these were both the Coopers Ac+L yeasts and used to be stamped on the back as such.  These days there is just a number and also a Julian date code.

[Marty_G]

2 hours ago, Werner potgieter said:

You guys are legends! Helping so quickly. Man I reckon I need to sit down with someone who is well versed in all of this. I love an Ale and just want to make a consistent nice brew which is stocked in the cupboard for BBQs etc. 

If you want to make consistent good tasting beers accurate temp control is the way to go.  Grab yourself a cheap fridge, freezers are better as they have better insulation, and an InkBird so you can override the thermostat and set the appliance to an accurate stable temp.  It really is worth the investment. At most it will cost a couple of hundred all up.  Keeping the temp stable and at the optimum temp is the first and easiest step to consistent results. 

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224193706132?epid=630720614&hash=item3432fc7894:g:oMYAAOSwnHBfhpoR

[Norris!]

I think this might have been touched on above but how long did you keep it in the fermenter? Even if it is at a stable final gravity the yeast needs time to clean up. Depending on the ingredients it can be quicker but I used to give kits between 10 and 14 days in the fermenter.

[Marty_G]

@Norris! has a good point there.   The usual by-products of fermentation that can cause "off" flavour need to be cleaned up by the yeast at the end of ferment. However, this is not a silver bullet for all off flavours. Some will not be cleaned up. The off flavours that are a result of too high a ferment temp are some that can not be cleaned up as they are formed at the higher temp.  However, those that are from being at the correct temp can be.  That is why it is the correct temp.  If the makes sense. 

 

The usual ferment process is final gravity for 48 hours and then it is considered  finished and "cleaned up". Many leave it for a couple of days longer which can be good practice.  Then you can move to the next step which can be a mix of any of these. Package, leave longer or cold crash. The cold crash helps with clarity.  My routine is leave for about 72 hours after FG is reached,  cold crash at 1c for 7 about days then package.  

[Werner potgieter]

29 minutes ago, Norris! said:

I think this might have been touched on above but how long did you keep it in the fermenter? Even if it is at a stable final gravity the yeast needs time to clean up. Depending on the ingredients it can be quicker but I used to give kits between 10 and 14 days in the fermenter.

Again, referring to the label on the can (which I now understand is not correct) i would leave it for 6 days and test the SG until FG is reached. 
 

so leaving it another 2 to 4 days after FG has been reached so that the yeast can clean up is my understanding from all the various messages. 

[Werner potgieter]

16 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

@Norris! has a good point there.   The usual by-products of fermentation that can cause "off" flavour need to be cleaned up by the yeast at the end of ferment. However, this is not a silver bullet for all off flavours. Some will not be cleaned up. The off flavours that are a result of too high a ferment temp are some that can not be cleaned up as they are formed at the higher temp.  However, those that are from being at the correct temp can be.  That is why it is the correct temp.  If the makes sense. 

 

The usual ferment process is final gravity for 48 hours and then it is considered  finished and "cleaned up". Many leave it for a couple of days longer which can be good practice.  Then you can move to the next step which can be a mix of any of these. Package, leave longer or cold crash. The cold crash helps with clarity.  My routine is leave for about 72 hours after FG is reached,  cold crash at 1c for 7 about days then package.  

Ill bottle this batch even though the temps were so high, and see how it tastes. 
 

ill keep in mind all the valuable messages that you guys have given me in hopes of a better brew. 
 

cheers!

[Werner potgieter]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

Yep that sanitiser is the way to go when mixed to the proper ratio and definitely do not rinse it afterwards because you are just undoing all the good work of the sanitiser.

Got it! Wont rinse after. 
 

cheers

[jamiek86]

I always lightly rinse the bubbles from bottom from Fv and have never had a problem with un doing anything or infection as the stellarsan soaks for hours on end anyway. But probably good idea as beginner to avoid what some may call a bad practice.

[jamiek86]

7 hours ago, MUZZY said:

Stop it, Mick!!! Stop it right now. There's already enough angst on the forum without you stirring the hornet's nest.

I hadn't noticed i turned off notifications on a few people that annoyed me think the forum has been quite peaceful actually.