And now for something different... (OK, it's cider)

[Journeyman]

I was at the Club last night, having a few and buying some meat raffle tickets. I got fronted by a couple of the local ladies.

The Club has Coopers taps but mostly it's CUB - blackfish, whitefish, draught & cider. Recently the cider changed and now it's Somersby - not sure why, but I think CUB stopped production of the other or sold it maybe. Somersby is very sweet and the girls aren't happy, particularly as the bottles of cider they now drink do not get the 2-hour 'happy hour' prices.

So the pressure has come for me to do a cider for them, nice and dry preferred. Well, that seems easy - it's making sweet cider that is difficult.

So today, email to Ashton Valley Fresh, a fresh juice place less than an hour from here. Good news is their prices have dropped - from $1.50 per litre to $1.10 p/l & they do 25L container for $5 - I can't get a container for that price.  

They offered pasteurised, non-pasteurised, clear or cloudy. I figured I'd go for non-past and clear - is there any reason to go for cloudy? Does the extra pulp add anything?

I'm getting some SAFCider yeast, I'll take @ChristinaS1advice re 3 lots of nutrients, at pitch, when it goes active and when activity slows, to ensure plenty of nitrogen and I'm thinking maybe a litre of pear juice to provide a little bit of sweetening in 25L juice. Also plan to use low carb enzyme - one of the girls is trying to lose weight for an operation and wants carbs as low as possible, and for both, strong is good.

Any advice from those who have done ciders?

Do I need to do normal sugar conditioning in the bottle and is it similar amounts to doing beer?

Is temp of 18° OK for cider?

Does it take longer to condition? I note @MUZZYand a couple of others mention they preferred their cider after some time had passed. Are we talking months? 

Does cider go OK in PET's or should I use glass? The thinking is maybe the chemistry of cider is different...

[Norris!]

The cider should be ready to drink right after fermentation but it will mature over time, the can kit ciders are the ones that need time as they are horrible, in my experience.

Using yeast nutrients is a great idea and will cut back off any sulphur aromas you get from underpitching and stressing the yeast.

Since you are using juice it should ferment out dry with little sweetness, as you say they like it. If you want it sweeter than just be careful if bottling on the techniques you use to reduce bottle bombs or use sweetener To bring it inline to your expectations

[ben 10]

32 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Any advice from those who have done ciders?

I have done ciders.
A wine yeast is good.
No need for nutrient. 
18°c is fine.
You want it fizzy so go heavy on the carbonation sugar.
Don't need enzyme either, they normally finish around 1.000.
Cloudy juice should not have pulp, probably just has not been filtered.

First one - just juice from the juice place, should be 1.050 or thereabouts. Will be AWESOME. Some conditioning will help.

[Malter White]

@Journeyman My cider experience is quite limited. Only extracts and they weren't great. The last one I made was September and we first tried it around Xmas. As we weren't that impressed with it I just left it the cupboard. Tried one or two a few weeks ago. It had improved but still wasn't great.

I'd say avoid extracts and go along the juice path you're already on.

PET bottles didn't seem to have any negative effect.

[Journeyman]

Should I go with pasteurised juice? I was thinking not but further thought was, it will kill off any other wild yeasts or things that might affect the end product, right?

[Classic Brewing Co]

45 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

@Journeyman My cider experience is quite limited. Only extracts and they weren't great. The last one I made was September and we first tried it around Xmas. As we weren't that impressed with it I just left it the cupboard. Tried one or two a few weeks ago. It had improved but still wasn't great.

I'd say avoid extracts and go along the juice path you're already on.

PET bottles didn't seem to have any negative effect.

I have never made a cider, I have seen the extract tins many times at the LHBS & Big W etc but never picked one up. If I made one I would probably try a simple one just for the experience however I would be looking for something fairly alcoholic with a nice dry bite to it. It sounds like it's not possible without an awful lot of fuss.

I will try one & investigate the additives I need to make something acceptable.

[ben 10]

53 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Should I go with pasteurised juice? I was thinking not but further thought was, it will kill off any other wild yeasts or things that might affect the end product, right?

Do both. 
Scrumpy was the way back then, the yeast on the skin can work well.

[Norris!]

Juice will be really nice but another option if for some reason it doesnt work out mangrove jacks makes excellent cider pouches, just for dont use the sweetner or a half to 1/4 and the packet. Just tossing that out there  

[ChristinaS1]

4 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Should I go with pasteurised juice? I was thinking not but further thought was, it will kill off any other wild yeasts or things that might affect the end product, right?

If you use unpasteurized juice and are not interested in wild yeast co-ferment you should use a yeast with kill factors, such as Lalvin 1118 champagne yeast or 1116 white wine yeast. Wine and champagne yeasts take longer to clean up acetaldehyde. If you use pasteurized juice you can use yeast without kill factors, such as beer yeast, without having to worry about co-fermentation from wild yeast.

I don't know about SAF cider yeast in particular but AFAIK cider yeast tend not to have kill factors and leave a couple of gravity points behind.

A lot of people like co-fermentation from wild yeast, just bear in mind your results will vary from one batch to the next. Some will be good, and some not so good, depending on which wild yeast make their way into the ferment.

Agree with @Green Blob about leaving out dry enzymes. They are not necessary.

Be careful with nutrients. Recommend sticking to using boiled yeast (aka ghost cells). Avoid those which contain DAP.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited April 16, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Journeyman]

18 hours ago, Green Blob said:

Do both. 
Scrumpy was the way back then, the yeast on the skin can work well.

I don't have access to any dead rats so scrumpy is not on the books.   

I'll try pasteurised to start - that way I can get a handle on how it progresses so I can know what (if anything) might be different with an unpasteurised brew.

18 hours ago, CLASSIC said:

I would be looking for something fairly alcoholic with a nice dry bite to it. It sounds like it's not possible without an awful lot of fuss

Actually 'nice dry bite' is easy - just brew the cider. It's trying to get a sweet cider that is more difficult, particularly if, (like me) you have zero interest in using artificial sweeteners - which the kits come with...

15 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

A lot of people like co-fermentation from wild yeast, just bear in mind your results will vary from one batch to the next. Some will be good, and some not so good, depending on which wild yeast make their way into the ferment

From my reading and advice here and elsewhere, I'm going with pasteurised to start.  I ordered some SAFCider yeast to try and will see how it goes. I am figuring to use both pkts in the 25/26L brew - not sure yet if I will add pear juice, given what you say about cider yeast leaving gravity points behind. I'm presuming that means it will leave it slightly sweeter than say, a champ yeast?

The girls want dry cider and one wants as low carb as possible so now I'm thinking about the enzyme. If cider yeast doesn't ferment all the way out ("leave a couple of gravity points behind") then it might still be a good idea to add some into the brew. I figure better to have them say it is too dry and they can back-sweeten than to have it too sweet for them.

Would the low carb enzyme have an bad effects on a cider or just you think it might be wasted given the cider gets so low on SG?

Edited April 17, 2021 by Journeyman

[ben 10]

57 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

If cider yeast doesn't ferment all the way out

IT WILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Journeyman]

9 minutes ago, Green Blob said:

IT WILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

 Just covering bases based on @ChristinaS1comment. (in brackets)

Do you have any idea what the difference might be between cloudy and clear juice in the final result? Is it just one ends cloudy and one doesn't or is there some other metric?

While I'm asking questions, how would a cider go in a pressure ferment - I have a Keg King G3 to try out. Any negatives about using it for cider?

Edited April 17, 2021 by Journeyman

[ChristinaS1]

13 hours ago, Journeyman said:

 Just covering bases based on @ChristinaS1comment. (in brackets)

@Green Blob I may be wrong. The 1-2points may be from juice or temperature factors, not due to the "design" of the yeast. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[ben 10]

4 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

@Green Blob I may be wrong. The 1-2points may be from juice or temperature factors, not due to the "design" of the yeast. 

I may be wrong too.

[Journeyman]

7 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

@Green Blob I may be wrong. The 1-2points may be from juice or temperature factors, not due to the "design" of the yeast. 

 

2 hours ago, Green Blob said:

I may be wrong too.

Well,  would this work - wait till I hit FG then if it isn't 1.000, add the dry enzyme? My understanding is the enzyme plays with the unfermentable chains and makes them fermentable so the yeast would wake up and go on a binge.

[ChristinaS1]

If the FG is 1.001-1.002 it will still be very dry. I see no role for dry enzyme in cider.

If you are using cloudy juice, you could treat the must with pectinase before adding the yeast.

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[ben 10]

3 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I see no role for dry enzyme in cider.

I feel the same. Surely there are not any sugars in apple juice that require the help of alpha-amylase?

[Journeyman]

8 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

If the FG is 1.001-1.002 it will still be very dry. I see no role for dry enzyme in cider.

If you are using cloudy juice, you could treat the must with pectinase before adding the yeast.

OK, so clear juice it is.  

5 minutes ago, Green Blob said:

I feel the same. Surely there are not any sugars in apple juice that require the help of alpha-amylase?

Coolth then. I can save the enzyme for the stuff I drink as my personal anti-pollution contribution to the planet.

[Graculus]

I've tried all sorts of different things when making cider.

I've yet to find anything I would say has as much taste as a commercial cider.

So I'm interested to see what happens here.

Agree with Christina that you'll have to use pectinase. That's if you want it to clear.
I think if I was able to source cloudy apple juice I'd make a cloudy cider. But that's just me.

I tried some cider up Southern Man's house a few weeks ago. Neither of us were that impressed.
It was a kit, and I don't remember the brand. I took some of my Mangrove Jacks cider up for him to try.
Haven't seen him for a few weeks, so I don't know what he thought, as I've been a bit busy.

[Journeyman]

38 minutes ago, Graculus said:

I took some of my Mangrove Jacks cider up for him to try.
Haven't seen him for a few weeks

One is hoping these 2 clauses are not in a causative relationship.

[Journeyman]

40 minutes ago, Graculus said:

So I'm interested to see what happens here.

I'll let you know. Waiting to hear back as to when I can get the juice. 

[Malter White]

1 hour ago, Graculus said:

I've tried all sorts of different things when making cider.

I've yet to find anything I would say has as much taste as a commercial cider.

So I'm interested to see what happens here.

I tried some cider up Southern Man's house a few weeks ago. Neither of us were that impressed.
It was a kit, and I don't remember the brand. I took some of my Mangrove Jacks cider up for him to try.
Haven't seen him for a few weeks, so I don't know what he thought, as I've been a bit busy.

I've tried 3 different kits of ciders and go along with your summation, Graculus. While they haven't been dreadful they don't compare favourably against the commercial brands.
As I'm not a cider drinker and my wife is but she doesn't drink much anyway, it's more feasible for us to just buy commercial cider for her. I doubt I'll bother making a kit cider ever again. A juice version could be a possibility in the future though. I'll be interested to know how yours turns out, @Journeyman.

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 minute ago, MUZZY said:

I've tried 3 different kits of ciders and go along with your summation, Graculus. While they haven't been dreadful they don't compare favourably against the commercial brands.
As I'm not a cider drinker and my wife is but she doesn't drink much anyway, it's more feasible for us to just buy commercial cider for her. I doubt I'll bother making a kit cider ever again. A juice version could be a possibility in the future though. I'll be interested to know how yours turns out, @Journeyman.

I was interested in giving it a go but by the sounds of all of this I would rather buy a 6 pack of it if I felt like a cider. I have got a couple of cans in the fridge right now - one is a

Little Fat Lamb Brewed Ginger 8%  & the other is a Mercury Hard Cider 6.9%  I think a mate left them here a couple of months ago, I will try them & it might change my mind.

[Journeyman]

5 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

As I'm not a cider drinker

I've been known to try a few so should be able to give a decent appraisal.  I've seen enough evals about how much better fresh juice is than the kits that I've become a bit suss about those who rave on the kit versions.

[Journeyman]

1 minute ago, CLASSIC said:

I was interested in giving it a go but by the sounds of all of this I would rather buy a 6 pack of it if I felt like a cider

I've been kinda planning it for a bit for SWMBO but she was concerned about her ABV intake so I've put it off. Then the ladies the other night got all enthused so I figure, time to do it. This one is going to be pretty straight as far as recipe, juice, nutrient and yeast with possibly 250g LDME to provide a bit of body and head.

On 4/16/2021 at 2:38 PM, Green Blob said:

You want it fizzy so go heavy on the carbonation sugar.

I'm not sure about the carb sugar though - when you say 'go heavy' what amounts are you talking about? 10g/L or more than that? I don't think I have enough PET's and I don't want to make bombs given these are going to others.