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Oil, Fat, and Infusions Facts


Cee

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Peanut Powder as an ingredient

Ok this is interesting.  I saw a thread (not sure how to just put a link) STRANGE STOUT By GingerNuts81

 

Nuts (not sure about Ginger ones lol) generally contain oils - and this raises an associated question or 2 or 3 or a dozen or more...

 

How does brewing using oils/fats work? (Or is it something incompatible with brewing?) 

What factors must be considered?

Some people infuse ingredients with oils/fats to extract qualities from within - can this process be used regarding ingredients for brewing?

How would fermentation effect such extracts etc?

 

Does anybody else have related questions we can add?

 

Just the extended little voyage of wonder my brain took when I saw someone brewing with Peanut Powder

 

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I made a coffee stout using 100g fresh ground beans, which contain oils. I read later about oils causing flat beer or head b ut never noticed any bad effects in the stout. In  fact I mis-calc'd the sugar for priming and the bottles are Vesuvius-level foam if I don't open VERY carefully. 😄

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Good question. I've been choosing between chocolate sauce toppings for an additive. Went with Hersheys as it was primarily fermentables. But some, particularly the ones that go hard on ice cream, had coconut oil, vegetable oil, even sweetened condensed milk. I wondered about that last one in particular. I'm expecting @ChristinaS1 would be able to help.

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I have never tried to make a chocolate stout using actual chocolate, chocolate syrup, cocoa powder, or cocoa nibs, because of the fat issue. I read in a brew magazine that the way Young's does it is by adding buckets of chocolate flavoured liqueur, which avoids the fat issue. I think that is probably the best way to go...I am not sure if Young's adds the liqueur before or after they pasteurize the beer. If you add liqueur to the fermenter you will have to allow time for the yeast to ferment the sugars. The other option is to add it to your glass, which will provide a sweeter result. You could use Frangellico for a hazelnut flavour, or Amaretto for almond.

@alilley Regarding sweetened condensed milk. The sugar in it will be fermented, which will leave you with milk proteins (casein, whey etc), and lactose. The usual approach when making a milk stout is to use lactose powder; maybe there is a reason for that....I am not sure if having those milk proteins in your beer is a good idea, but I really don't know. 

One thing I would not do is add chocolate malt or brown malt to a stout kit, which I have tried. I find they add too much roast flavour and astringency. For a kit based chocolate stout I would stick to adding crystal malt, lactose, and vanilla extract, +/- chocolate liqueur. 

I have come to the conclusion the Coopers Original Stout kit is too bitter for a chocolate stout, to my taste anyway.  It might be worth checking one of their competitors for a stout with lower IBUs....While the Coopers Irish Stout kit has lower IBUs than the Original Stout, it is made with roasted barely, so not appropriate as a base for a chocolate stout either.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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10 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Cheers,

Christina.

cheers. I really wasn't a fan of the twocan stout because of the bitterness. In the current one I put 300g carafa special ii and ldm rather than dark malt extract. I just split it in two and added 150g hersheys syrup which is primarily HFCS and 50g lactose to one half.  Tasting, the stand alone stout is much more palatable than the stout+dark ale, already with a noticable choc presence. Did you ever try the dark ale as a base?

Also, what exactly is the issue with fats and oils in the beer?

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I just noticed the ROTM pack

Recipe of the Month Pack Includes:

  • 1 x 1.7kg Coopers Irish Stout
  • 1 x 1.5kg Thomas Coopers Light Malt Extract
  • 1 x 1kg Coopers Brew Enhancer 3
  • 1 x 250g Chocolate Malt
  • 1 x 100g Cacao Nibs
  • 2 x Tablespoons Cocoa Powder
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5 hours ago, alilley said:

cheers. I really wasn't a fan of the twocan stout because of the bitterness. In the current one I put 300g carafa special ii and ldm rather than dark malt extract. I just split it in two and added 150g hersheys syrup which is primarily HFCS and 50g lactose to one half.  Tasting, the stand alone stout is much more palatable than the stout+dark ale, already with a noticable choc presence. Did you ever try the dark ale as a base?

Also, what exactly is the issue with fats and oils in the beer?

Yeah, there is no way I would ever make a toucan. Way too bitter. 

Fats are antifoam. 

50gm of lactose? That is nothing. Most recipes call for around 300gm. 

I have not tried using the Dark Ale kit as a base for a chocolate milk stout but the idea has merit. It has around a quarter of the black patent in it as the Original Stout, so there would be "room" to add some pale chocolate malt, or Midnight Wheat, plus some crystal malt of course. The IBUs of the Dark Ale kit are still a bit on the high side, but it is probably your best option for a kit based chocolate milk stout. 

Chocolate malt can vary a lot in roast intensity, so pay attention to the EBCs. I would stick to Thomas Fawcett Pale Chocolate (stay away from their "regular" chocolate malt, which is extremely dark), or Joe White Chocolate (which is almost as light as Thomas Fawcett's Pale Chocolate).  Midnight Wheat is great, and the Carafa Specials are good too. 

I totally agree with staying away from dark LME if you are using a stout kit; it is the same as adding more black malt. LME. But you could use a tin of dark LME as a base and make your own bittering addition, if you wanted to get "fancy."

Cheers,

Christina.

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I have made a Hazelnut Porter using hazelnuts and have used coconut in a few beers too. The collective wisdom is to roast/ toast whatever oil containing items you want to use, this heightens the flavour and also does something to the oil so it doesn't have the as much of an effect on the final product.
I know people who have made a bunya nut beer and there is a chestnut pilsner available too.
 

The Hazelnut Porter had 450g roasted and crushed hazelnuts in the mash. It was effing GLORIOUS - @Beerlust had one and agreed.
Several Coopers recipes have desiccated coconut and all say to pan toast the coconut. I have done this and it also works well.

I would not add topping, use a chocolate liqueur essence from a home brew shop, that will do what you are after.

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1 hour ago, Green Blob said:

would not add topping, use a chocolate liqueur essence from a home brew shop, that will do what you are after.

I tried that for my first chocolate stout: it was gross. Very artificial and strong; synthetic chocolate flavour. Maybe it was the brand (Still Sprits) of chocolate liqueur essence I used?

I think chocolate liqueurs use actual chocolate, cocoa, or cocoa nibs to get their chocolate flavour. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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2 hours ago, Green Blob said:

he collective wisdom is to roast/ toast whatever oil containing items you want to use, this heightens the flavour and also does something to the oil so it doesn't have the as much of an effect on the final product.

That would explain why the coffee beans didn't affect head and retention in my stout - the beans are of course, roasted.

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Wow lots of good thinkings here since I last checked in

 

On 4/8/2021 at 2:17 AM, ChristinaS1 said:
On 4/7/2021 at 8:59 PM, alilley said:

Also, what exactly is the issue with fats and oils in the beer?

Yeah, there is no way I would ever make a toucan. Way too bitter. 

Fats are antifoam. 

 

Ok did I find a crucial piece of info here? Am I reading this right that the issue with fats and oils in beer, is that they are antifoam?

I feel a little bit lost as to what this means exactly. Is it essentially flat beer is the result of adding fats? I wonder if it is all types of fats... Or if such flattening can be compensated for somehow. 

On 4/7/2021 at 11:16 AM, Journeyman said:

I made a coffee stout using 100g fresh ground beans, which contain oils. I read later about oils causing flat beer or head b ut never noticed any bad effects in the stout. In  fact I mis-calc'd the sugar for priming and the bottles are Vesuvius-level foam if I don't open VERY carefully. 😄

 

This is interesting - no  noticeable flattening effects in the stout...  so does the flattening/antifoam differ depending on other ingredients... 

 

 

On 4/8/2021 at 9:39 AM, Journeyman said:
On 4/8/2021 at 7:08 AM, Green Blob said:

he collective wisdom is to roast/ toast whatever oil containing items you want to use, this heightens the flavour and also does something to the oil so it doesn't have the as much of an effect on the final product.

That would explain why the coffee beans didn't affect head and retention in my stout - the beans are of course, roasted.

 

Heating the oils - does the roasty toasty aspect simply dry up or burn up the oils, thus negating any impact by effectively removing the oils? 

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39 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Oils ruin the head on beer but won’t make the beer flat.

Carbonation and head retention are two different things, albeit somewhat related.

Thanks @Hairy for steering me back on course.

I was confusing my flattenings for my flatheads and it lead a to a brain flatulence 

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7 hours ago, Hairy said:

Oils ruin the head on beer but won’t make the beer flat.

Carbonation and head retention are two different things, albeit somewhat related.

 

6 hours ago, Cee said:

Thanks @Hairy for steering me back on course.

I was confusing my flattenings for my flatheads and it lead a to a brain flatulence 

 

I have a living example of what Hairy has described I recently made a Coffee Imperial Stout which I put dark bakers chocolate in which has a head when I pour it but immediately disappears leaving what appears to be a oil slick on the surface. I then thought this beers going to be stuffed but it still tastes awesome and to my surprise is still carbonated. I will be interested to make it again without the chocolate to see what difference it makes to the head retention and if it makes any difference to the taste. (Probably not lesson learnt) 

Edited by RDT2
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5 hours ago, RDT2 said:

I will be interested to make it again without the chocolate to see what difference it makes to the head retention and if it makes any difference to the taste

There are other forms of chocolate (e.g. cacao nibs) or even roasted cacao beans that could work. Various grains also to do a partial mash (if you aren't AG'ing) that will give the choc taste.

Edited by Journeyman
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56 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

There are other forms of chocolate (e.g. cacao nibs) or even roasted cacao beans that could work. Various grains also to do a partial mash (if you aren't AG'ing) that will give the choc taste.

Cheers mate I put Cacao nibs in as well that was another lesson learnt to contain them in the hop spider thought they would dissolve/breakdown in the boil but they don’t 🙄 The amount I have learnt from this brew I will be a professor of beer brewing 🤓

 

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23 hours ago, RDT2 said:

 

I have a living example of what Hairy has described I recently made a Coffee Imperial Stout which I put dark bakers chocolate in which has a head when I pour it but immediately disappears leaving what appears to be a oil slick on the surface. I then thought this beers going to be stuffed but it still tastes awesome and to my surprise is still carbonated. I will be interested to make it again without the chocolate to see what difference it makes to the head retention and if it makes any difference to the taste. (Probably not lesson learnt) 

Well this adds another very practical example - thank you. Please lettuce know how this experiment can contribute to this discussion.  So even though it decimates (horrible historic reality) head retention, it neither "flattens" the beer, nor does it rob from the flavours....

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7 hours ago, Cee said:

Well this adds another very practical example - thank you. Please lettuce know how this experiment can contribute to this discussion.  So even though it decimates (horrible historic reality) head retention, it neither "flattens" the beer, nor does it rob from the flavours....

My coffee stout could do with some 'decimation' 😄 (which reminds me, I should go put 1 or 2 in the fridge for a couple of days - things are chilling down towards winter here - 6° - 7° nights)

Edited by Journeyman
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