What's in Your Fermenter? 2021

[Pezzza]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:51 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

The old rule of thumb says to use "about a cup" of slurry for an average gravity brew. Pay attention to the lag time. A lag of roughly 18 hours at 18C (or around 12 hours at 20C) is what you are aiming for. If the lag time is only 3-6 hours you are over-pitching; more than 24 hours and you are under-pitching. A pitching temp above 20C will shorten the lag further and make the lag time more difficult to interpret. 

Great stuff Christina - that is a great bit of information.

Interestingly I have done a few AG beers in the past where I drain a fermenter to keg - and then top it up with a new fresh wort... And then did three in a row... so one fresh with a starter from dry sachet - and then two following with slurries left in the FV - no yeast is harvested in between to avoid any contam possibilities.  So the third brew will have a swag of yeast in the FV. 

I suspect the way the brews took off - that it would have been an overpitch from this useful Rule of Thumb - but they may have been around 20 before going back down to 18 too... at least the Ales...

The Lagers did kick on quickly too from memory - and were around 12-15 degrees or so....   But I did not time to peak kräussen either - I just looked on and went - great - it has fired up haha - not a lot of great scientific monitoring there ; )

All of the beers did turn out very nice... but maybe using US05 and W34/70 will usually end up being a clean-ish brew anyway... and over-pitching Lagers might be recommended too I guess?

I will keep a bit more of an eye on things moving forward - so are we aiming at monitoring the time to PEAK froth-fest or just an appearance of kräussen activity @ChristinaS1 Christina?

Thanks and Cheers 

 

[Pezzza]

Aley Boy in the brewfridge doin' a bit of CC chillin' and his mate PFV Lager in the Larder at Ambient c. 20 deg C and at 4 PSI are settling down... will keg the Ale tomorrow and toss in another ale wort and maybe if all things go well then do the same the following day for the Lager... that is if I can get a new fresh-deck of Lagery Wort done tomorrow... just a bit cooler at mo so need to utilise the good weather ; )

[ChristinaS1]

5 hours ago, Graubart said:

I will keep a bit more of an eye on things moving forward - so are we aiming at monitoring the time to PEAK froth-fest or just an appearance of kräussen activity @ChristinaS1 Christina?

Thanks and Cheers 

No, not peak kraussen activity, just until the end of the lag phase. In my case I use the start of bubbles in the airlock as my marker, but if you don't use an airlock you will have to use visual clues. 

Note that the "one cup of slurry" rule of thumb is for ales only, not lagers. Lagers pitched at fermentation temps are not suited to saving slurry, as the temperature is too cold for cellular reproduction.

In regards to lagers, if you pitch cold you could use the entire old yeast cake of the first batch, but personally I would only do that once and then start over again. The alternative would be to pitch a cup of slurry warm, at 18-20C, and then dial down the temp to 12C at the end of the lag phase, for fermentation. But with lager yeast it can be even harder to tell when the lag phase is over, using visual clues.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited January 20, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Pezzza]

17 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

No, not peak kraussen activity, just until the end of the lag phase. In my case I use the start of bubbles in the airlock as my marker, but if you don't use an airlock you will have to use visual clues. 

Note that the "one cup of slurry" rule of thumb is for ales only, not lagers. Lagers pitched at fermentation temps are not suited to saving slurry, as the temperature is too cold for cellular reproduction.

In regards to lagers, if you pitch cold you could use the entire old yeast cake of the first batch, but personally I would only do that once and then start over again. The alternative would be to pitch a cup of slurry warm, at 18-20C, and then dial down the temp to 12C at the end of the lag phase, for fermentation. But with lager yeast it can be even harder to tell when the lag phase is over, using visual clues.

Thanks Christina. Very much.  I have done the ol' "dump the whole fresh wort" onto the whole yeast cake for both Lagers and Ales before and they made great beers?  

I guess they were probably all on the clean side and not the funky aley thing...I guess it really depends on what flavour profile the Chief Brewer is chasing.

That is all great information you have provided - and will help me work out some yeast management strategies.

Tomorrow I am hoping to dump my most recent Lager Wort into the Pressure Vessel on top of the slurry - stirred and shaken (with apologies to James Bond) - and this will be at ambient like around 20 and then I will put under 7PSI or so straight away...   Probably not best practice but hopefully will produce a nice clean Lager style brew and the population should be right to go as it is not cold ?

 

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

2 hours ago, Graubart said:

Tomorrow I am hoping to dump my most recent Lager Wort into the Pressure Vessel on top of the slurry - stirred and shaken (with apologies to James Bond) - and this will be at ambient like around 20 and then I will put under 7PSI or so straight away...   Probably not best practice but hopefully will produce a nice clean Lager style brew and the population should be right to go as it is not cold ?

As mentioned before, because of the over-pitch when using an entire yeast cake, you won't get much cellular growth, so I would not reuse the yeast cake too often in a row.

When making lagers at ambient pressure everybody knows you need to pitch more yeast because the low pitching temp does not allow cellular growth. An average gravity brew needs around 400B cells. A tube of liquid yeast contains around 100B cells, which is why you need to make a starter, to build up the cell count to 400B. A package of dry yeast fresh off the assembly line contains around 200B cells, which is why you need a minimum of two packages (three is better) when pitching at 10-12C....Most homebrewers start out making ales with dry yeast and are surprised to learn they need to use multiple packages of dry lager yeast if pitching cold. Using multiple packages of dry yeast is expensive so many opt to use just one packet but pitch it at 18-20C and wait 18-24 hours before dropping the temperature to 10-12C. However, this will make the lager slightly more ester-y / less clean vs pitching 400B cells at 10-12C.

Fermenting under pressure adds another factor to consider when trying to decide how much yeast to pitch. They say fermenting under pressure inhibits cellular function (including reproduction) in much the same way that fermenting cold does, so keep this in mind. If you are planning to apply pressure immediately, pitch around 400B cells of yeast, whether lager or ale. If you are going to wait 18-24 hours before applying pressure it is okay to use one packet of dry yeast (~200B cells) whether lager or ale.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited January 21, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Pezzza]

54 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

As mentioned before, because of the over-pitch when using an entire yeast cake, you won't get much cellular growth, so I would not reuse the yeast cake too often in a row.

When making lagers at ambient pressure everybody knows you need to pitch more yeast because the low pitching temp does not allow cellular growth. An average gravity brew needs around 400B cells. A tube of liquid yeast contains around 100B cells, which is why you need to make a starter, to build up the cell count to 400B. A package of dry yeast fresh off the assembly line contains around 200B cells, which is why you need a minimum of two packages (three is better) when pitching at 10-12C....Most homebrewers start out making ales with dry yeast and are surprised to learn they need to use multiple packages of dry lager yeast if pitching cold. Using multiple packages of dry yeast is expensive so many opt to use just one packet but pitch it at 18-20C and wait 18-24 hours before dropping the temperature to 10-12C. However, this will make the lager slightly more ester-y / less clean vs pitching 400B cells at 10-12C.

Fermenting under pressure adds another factor to consider when trying to decide how much yeast to pitch. They say fermenting under pressure inhibits cellular function (including reproduction) in much the same way that fermenting cold does, so keep this in mind. If you are planning to apply pressure immediately, pitch around 400B cells of yeast, whether lager or ale. If you are going to wait 18-24 hours before applying pressure it is okay to use one packet of dry yeast (~200B cells) whether lager or ale.

Thanks Christina. 

I have done the ol' three in a row and then stopped... so Brew one with a starter and two following on the yeast cake.

I will take your advice for my ambient-pressure lager and let it fire up first before applying the pressure... W34/70 seems to ferment pretty clean even at around 20 degC... there is an interesting Brülosophy test showing that 10 deg C ferment and 20 deg C ferment did not appear to be hugely different... then same Brewer went on to have a crack at 27degC where there was a difference but his tasters did not find the warm ferment beer that bad... I have no aspirations to do 28 deg W34/70... but I have brewed W34/70 beers at 18-20 ambient pressure and they have been great.... so I think that I will not apply pressure to begin with as you suggest and let the slurry from the prior Lager come to life and then only apply 7PSI and move it up to 10PSI later. 

As for two packs of dry yeast... seriously I have brewed many AG beers and not used two packs... made starters but probably never reached that 400B nirvana level at pitch and the beers have been sensational.  I guess I have not tried to replicate someone else's beer or even replicate my own.... just gone with a simple procedure and using good water, nice freshly milled malts, good hops and mostly bland old US05 and W34/70 and with temp control... not entered any BJCP controlled comps but everyone seems to be happy with the beer.  

I guess that my yeast management could be improved and it is something I will keep working on...  but in the meantime my "bush brewing practices"  (the bush in Aussie means out in the boonies... for Canada maybe 'up the lake' ) seem to be delivering some very good beers.  Maybe I am lucky I am just using bland yeasts that don't do bad things on an under or over pitch if you have reasonable temp control and the other ingredients are ok?

[Tone boy]

14 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

As mentioned before, because of the over-pitch when using an entire yeast cake, you won't get much cellular growth, so I would not reuse the yeast cake too often in a row.

When making lagers at ambient pressure everybody knows you need to pitch more yeast because the low pitching temp does not allow cellular growth. An average gravity brew needs around 400B cells. A tube of liquid yeast contains around 100B cells, which is why you need to make a starter, to build up the cell count to 400B. A package of dry yeast fresh off the assembly line contains around 200B cells, which is why you need a minimum of two packages (three is better) when pitching at 10-12C....Most homebrewers start out making ales with dry yeast and are surprised to learn they need to use multiple packages of dry lager yeast if pitching cold. Using multiple packages of dry yeast is expensive so many opt to use just one packet but pitch it at 18-20C and wait 18-24 hours before dropping the temperature to 10-12C. However, this will make the lager slightly more ester-y / less clean vs pitching 400B cells at 10-12C.

Fermenting under pressure adds another factor to consider when trying to decide how much yeast to pitch. They say fermenting under pressure inhibits cellular function (including reproduction) in much the same way that fermenting cold does, so keep this in mind. If you are planning to apply pressure immediately, pitch around 400B cells of yeast, whether lager or ale. If you are going to wait 18-24 hours before applying pressure it is okay to use one packet of dry yeast (~200B cells) whether lager or ale.

Cheers,

Christina.

Great conversation here guys.

So I intend to do some lagers soon - temperature control should be here soon (very excited). I want to re-use the yeast to keep costs down. So what is my best strategy keeping in mind I don’t have a pressure FV. 

Should I:

1) repitch cooled wort onto the yeast cake ?(maybe not recommended due to lack of cellular growth); or

2) harvest the yeast at the end of the first batch and use some/most (1/2) of that? If so should I pitch it into 12 degrees wort, or 20 degrees wort and then slowly cool to 12 degrees ?

keeping in mind I would like a clean beer with no esters...

Cheers 

[ChristinaS1]

Congrats on getting temp control @Tone boy Do you want to use dry yeast? You have the right idea. Use one pack of dry yeast for the first batch, pitch at 18-20C, and then slowly cool to 12C once you see signs of fermentation, or around 18-24 hours later. Next time around you can either:

1.) use half of the yeast cake, pitch at 18-20C, then slowly cool to 12C etc. Save the other half of the yeast cake for your next batch.  If you want you can repeat the process with your second Gen 2 batch, and potentially you could do it again, depending on your sanitation practices and risk tolerance. If you don't want to drink a lot of lagers, don't go out that many generations. 

2.) use the whole yeast cake and pitch at 12C.  You could repeat this process maybe one more time. Personally I would not go any further than that, but no doubt there are people who do.

Once you have some experience, consider trying liquid yeast. A low tech way to go is to make a Shaken Not Stirred vitality starter (search the archives for my thread). A higher tech alternative is to use a stir plate and large erlenmyer flask and overbuild a viability (regular) starter. Then you save slurry from the starter rather than from the bottom fo the fermenter, a process which has some definite advantages. Otto Von Blotto has a thread about it.

Have you read Brulosphy's Fast Lager process? https://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ Not sure if it is considered old hat now. Personally, I have never used Brulosophy's method. On the rare occasion when I make a lager, I ferment it in a keg, under pressure.

Cheers,

Christina. 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Tone boy]

Thanks @ChristinaS1 Christina. Helpful as always, and greatly appreciated. Option 1 looks like a winner, and yes I’ll be using dry yeast. W34/70 seems to get a good rap from the legendary @Graubart artful one and others so maybe try that one out. I’ll check out those threads too. 
BTW I tasted my first partial mash effort last night which I made after receiving your help and advice. It has only been in the bottle for 18 days but it was fantastic! Had a few friends around and we got a bit excited so we thought we’d better crack one for a taste test. Can imagine it will only improve over the coming weeks (if I can restrain myself of course!). I’ll post up a pic next tasting. Probably not in peak condition to be taking photos last night!

cheers and thanks again 

TB

[ChristinaS1]

42 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Thanks @ChristinaS1 Christina. Helpful as always, and greatly appreciated. Option 1 looks like a winner, and yes I’ll be using dry yeast. W34/70 seems to get a good rap from the legendary @Graubart artful one and others so maybe try that one out. I’ll check out those threads too. 
BTW I tasted my first partial mash effort last night which I made after receiving your help and advice. It has only been in the bottle for 18 days but it was fantastic! Had a few friends around and we got a bit excited so we thought we’d better crack one for a taste test. Can imagine it will only improve over the coming weeks (if I can restrain myself of course!). I’ll post up a pic next tasting. Probably not in peak condition to be taking photos last night!

cheers and thanks again 

TB

Congratulations on the successful partial mash. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[Stickers]

double bottling weekend coming up, a saison i'm bottling tomorrow and then an english bitter either late tomorrow afternoon or sunday morning - and planning on using a new bottling wand on the english bitter which thankfully arrived in the mail today.

planning a cooper's draught/be2 with a steep of cara aroma and kveik voss yeast for monday-before-australia day when we're looking at temperatures in the 40s in melbourne.. will take advantage of the heat!

saisonic the hedgehog

[Pezzza]

6 hours ago, Tone boy said:

but it was fantastic

Wow how goooooood TB!  A truly beautiful thing mate!  Well done.  And things will only get better!!!

Yeah the ol' W34/70 is a good one, but be kind to it, and temp control is always good.... 

Mate with @ChristinaS1 Christina's help re Partials and the rest of the site legends here I reckon you will go from strength to strenght mate ; )

And if on Ales... well there is the ol' US05 that everyone bags for being so bland - but it is a great performer haha!

Really glad that there are some loverly brews coming through at the TB Brewhouse Fantastique!

[Tone boy]

Thanks @Graubart for your kind words. You’re right, there are a heap of legends on this site and everyone is so helpful. Been blown away by this forum actually. 
 

Cheers 

[Pezzza]

6 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Been blown away by this forum actually. 

Mate what is so festive is that there is so much opportunity for brewing great beers by learning some of the brew-tricks that the good Brewskis on this site have found before we got here... is really the biggest reason that I have been able to get to this stage... and there is a huge load of thanks to some of the absolute Brew Guns that contribute to this site!!! 

I was stoked to see how you had done with the Partials and got some great feedback from some of your tasters mate.... proof in the pudding... Gold!  

Well done I say and keep on brewing mate - and you will be blown away what you can achieve when you go AG.... in the meantime you can make great KnK w Partials!!!!

Megaswill... with all its massive advertising...  just drifts away into insignificance in the meantime haha!

Edited January 22, 2021 by Graubart

[Pale Man]

7 hours ago, Tone boy said:

Thanks @ChristinaS1 Christina. Helpful as always, and greatly appreciated. Option 1 looks like a winner, and yes I’ll be using dry yeast. W34/70 seems to get a good rap from the legendary @Graubart artful one and others so maybe try that one out. I’ll check out those threads too. 
BTW I tasted my first partial mash effort last night which I made after receiving your help and advice. It has only been in the bottle for 18 days but it was fantastic! Had a few friends around and we got a bit excited so we thought we’d better crack one for a taste test. Can imagine it will only improve over the coming weeks (if I can restrain myself of course!). I’ll post up a pic next tasting. Probably not in peak condition to be taking photos last night!

cheers and thanks again 

TB

Your first partial usually or inevitably leads to the dark side of All Grain. Not always, but when you smell that grain mashing. Its gods gift to us brewers.

And also the challenge. Its good fun. If thats your idea of fun 

[Pale Man]

11 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Thanks @Graubart for your kind words. You’re right, there are a heap of legends on this site and everyone is so helpful. Been blown away by this forum actually. 
 

Cheers 

I'm relatively new here. You'll soon find the legends. And sift through the stuff you already know. There is some amazing brewers here. From kits, partials, all grain.

And very lovely people. 

[Tone boy]

Cheers PM. You’re right it is good fun. The tasting is even funner!!

AG might be a little while away, just due to time constraints more than anything. Still enjoy all the AG discussions though. Plenty to learn...And partials seem like a good way forward to experiment with some grains. Maybe better head retention too??

[Pale Man]

17 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Thanks @Graubart for your kind words. You’re right, there are a heap of legends on this site and everyone is so helpful. Been blown away by this forum actually. 
 

Cheers 

There is some brewing sites that tend to look down on you if you are an extract brewer. This site is so brilliant in being totally inclusive.

Ive tasted some amazing kit beers, and some terrible All Grain beers. The terrible AG beers have been mine when i'm learning.

All said, this is a fantastic place to learn. 

[Pale Man]

Ill just add there is some female brewers here that ignore their advice at your peril.

@ChristinaS1 doesnt post too much, but what she has to say, sit back and take it in. I read her posts like its an event. So much good information and experience.

Anyway ive blabbed on too much. 

[Pezzza]

34 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

And partials seem like a good way forward to experiment with some grains. Maybe better head retention too??

Every step towards AG - like doing steeping and then partials....  bringing in fresh malted and milled grain for head retention... will always win :  )

 

Ha ha and don't worry I have made a swag of Coopers KnK that were great...

Edited January 22, 2021 by Graubart

[Shamus O'Sean]

I loved reading through the last day of posts on here.  Gender neutral.  International flavour.  Outstanding sharing of knowledge.

@Graubart, in case you did not know it, you are one of the legends on here.  Of course, so is @ChristinaS1.  Both of you willing to help, without hesitation.  The only limitation is time-zone.  

[Tricky Micky]

10 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I loved reading through the last day of posts on here.  Gender neutral.  International flavour.  Outstanding sharing of knowledge.

@Graubart, in case you did not know it, you are one of the legends on here.  Of course, so is @ChristinaS1.  Both of you willing to help, without hesitation.  The only limitation is time-zone.  

Incredible forum - Agreed. The sharing of knowledge here is outstanding. Thank-you all!

[Pezzza]

12 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I loved reading through the last day of posts on here.  Gender neutral.  International flavour.  Outstanding sharing of knowledge.

@Graubart, in case you did not know it, you are one of the legends on here.  Of course, so is @ChristinaS1.  Both of you willing to help, without hesitation.  The only limitation is time-zone.  

Haha Cheers Shamus... and mate you are way too humble to blow your own trumpet Cobber but you do a consistent and ongoing outstanding job on this site helping our good Brewers in all sorts of ways... let alone the massive spready that amazed a young Brewer mate of mine... so big congrats to you!!  And to the many good folk that have helped me get here -- I won't try to name everyone as there are many... but I would not be down the track as far if I did not have the massive help from the good Brewhahas on this site!!!  

Haha and while we are on it - these blllllardy push on Duotight fittings - should be over on the Kegging Thread yeah but just quickly - I should just be able to cut the hose end nice and square and then push gently in with a two part slide in? 

Got some replacements from KL and wanted to give them their best chance ; )  on me filter system... which I will test with water first : )

[Pezzza]

13 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

  The only limitation is time-zone.  

... haha and also being sober enough to see the computer screen and get the fingers to hit the right keys 

[John E Miller]

First time brewing with Kveik. El Dorado pale ale. 

It feels insane brewing in a hot garage! Trying to keep this thing between 35-40°, which isn't too hard this weekend. 

Anybody have advice about when to dryhop?