Bad Mosaic? What do you think?

[ScottyMac]

What do people think of Mosaic hops?

I can't decide whether I just don't like them or whether I had a bad batch.  I did an IPA a little while back and thought that I just left the hops (Mosaic in the dry hop) in too long and maybe ended up with some in the bottles.  It tasted grassy and rather unpleasant.  Maybe astringent.  I tipped the batch, undrinkable.

Now I've just opened a SMASH pale ale (Vienna malt and Mosaic hops) that I did a few weeks back and I've ended up with the same sort of flavour.  Grassy or vegetal type flavour, unpleasantly bitter, astringent.  The hops smell fine fresh.

So, are Mosaic "unpleasant" or have I don't something wrong or do I just not like the flavour?  Recipe I did is below.  I also did another recipe on the same day, exact same measurements and times but substitute Veloria Malt and Galaxy hops.  For the record this one turned out pretty drinkable.

Thoughts anyone?

2.25kg Vienna malt
5g Mosaic @ 45 min
5g Mosaic @ 30 min
8g Mosaic @ whirlpool (85 degrees for 15 min)
7g Mosaic @ whirlpool (75 degrees for 15 min)
Safale US-05
20g Mosaic @ dry hop (after day 4 for 3 days)

[ben 10]

What volume is the brew?
I cannot imagine that level of hops is over hopped.

[ScottyMac]

40 minutes ago, Green Blob said:

What volume is the brew?
I cannot imagine that level of hops is over hopped.

Small batch, 10L into the fermenter.  Should have been about 33IBU...wasn't overly bitter, just unpleasantly bitter, flavour wise.  And curious since I've had similar flavour profile with two different brews.

[Lab Cat]

I've used Mosaic in pales a while back. Didn't like it bittered at all. Steeped and dry hopped instead and still too tropical for me.  I doubt there's anything wrong with the hops used, you probably jsut don't like them

[Yatesy83]

I found that Amarillo and galaxy don’t work for my palate either. Yet no issues with cascade and citra. Who knows...

[ScottyMac]

Thanks people. Flavour certainly wasn’t fruity or citrus... that I was hoping for. But yes,could just be my palate. I’ll try some other recipes in the same style, just substitute hops, and I’ll figure it out.

[Aussiekraut]

17 hours ago, ScottyMac said:

What do people think of Mosaic hops?

I can't decide whether I just don't like them or whether I had a bad batch.  I did an IPA a little while back and thought that I just left the hops (Mosaic in the dry hop) in too long and maybe ended up with some in the bottles.  It tasted grassy and rather unpleasant.  Maybe astringent.  I tipped the batch, undrinkable.

Now I've just opened a SMASH pale ale (Vienna malt and Mosaic hops) that I did a few weeks back and I've ended up with the same sort of flavour.  Grassy or vegetal type flavour, unpleasantly bitter, astringent.  The hops smell fine fresh.

So, are Mosaic "unpleasant" or have I don't something wrong or do I just not like the flavour?  Recipe I did is below.  I also did another recipe on the same day, exact same measurements and times but substitute Veloria Malt and Galaxy hops.  For the record this one turned out pretty drinkable.

Thoughts anyone?

2.25kg Vienna malt
5g Mosaic @ 45 min
5g Mosaic @ 30 min
8g Mosaic @ whirlpool (85 degrees for 15 min)
7g Mosaic @ whirlpool (75 degrees for 15 min)
Safale US-05
20g Mosaic @ dry hop (after day 4 for 3 days)

I love Mosaic. Strong citrus flavours, a little grapefruit here and there and a good bitterness from a 60 minute boil. 

One in 3 batches I make is a single hop beer with Mosaic. I don't taste anything grassy. It's got to be my favourite hop. But yes, taste varies and maybe you really did get an off batch or something. My staple is 10g @60, 20g@10, 20g@ whirlpool (80C) and 50g dry hop for batches brewed to 26l, so I can get 21-22l into the FV. The only complaint about it I had was from one person saying it was "too citrussy". 

[ScottyMac]

3 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I love Mosaic. Strong citrus flavours, a little grapefruit here and there and a good bitterness from a 60 minute boil. 

One in 3 batches I make is a single hop beer with Mosaic. I don't taste anything grassy. It's got to be my favourite hop. But yes, taste varies and maybe you really did get an off batch or something. My staple is 10g @60, 20g@10, 20g@ whirlpool (80C) and 50g dry hop for batches brewed to 26l, so I can get 21-22l into the FV. The only complaint about it I had was from one person saying it was "too citrussy". 

I’m certainly getting none of those flavours or aromas that anyone is describing so either I’ve screwed something up or the batch is a tad dodgy. 
Odd that I can do the same recipe with a different hop and get an ok result. 
I might give them another shot and cross the fingers. 

[King Ruddager]

Not sure where you're from but have you ever tried Pirate Life's Mosaic IPA?

I made a single-hop mosaic IPA of my own with a 60 minute bittering addition to 76 IBUs, and it was lovely.

I think you're doing it wrong 

Edited December 19, 2020 by King Ruddager

[Titan]

14 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

I think you're doing it wrong 

Or someone labelled the bag of mosaic incorrectly.

[Pale Man]

Did a partial mash a while back with a lot of mosaic. It was delicious. I'll hace to dig the recipe up to remember.

[King Ruddager]

19 hours ago, Titan said:

Or someone labelled the bag of mosaic incorrectly.

You mean “someone labelled the bag of grass clippings incorrectly”

[ScottyMac]

I'm leaning towards the "you're doing it  wrong" comment.

I've had a couple batches come out with similar flavours now, and the last one didn't use the mosaic hops.  So now looking at user error.

Can you guys give me a quick run down on how you go about dry hopping?  I'm suspecting that I've introduced something, possibly just too much oxygen, when I've done this.  I wouldn't have described the flavours as cardboard like but am thinking oxidisation might be the likely culprit now.  I have never got these flavours from a brew that I haven't not dry hopped.

I know it's a simple process but would be interested in specifics about how you all go about getting it right.  Bag them, dump them right in, soak them first to get rid of oxygen (I'm talking hop pellets). There's something I'm missing or something I need to tweak to get the desired effect.. i.e. drinkable beer. 

Also going to do a side by side comparison of a brew.  Dry hop one and leave the other sealed and see how that goes.

[Dozer71]

10 minutes ago, ScottyMac said:

Can you guys give me a quick run down on how you go about dry hopping?  

On day 3 or 4 when fermentation is nearly finished (SG around 1.020), starsan the outside of the packet,  just open the lid and drop them in loose. Then cold crash 2 to 3 days after reaching FG. I've had no issues doing it this way.

[ScottyMac]

25 minutes ago, Dozer71 said:

On day 3 or 4 when fermentation is nearly finished (SG around 1.020), starsan the outside of the packet,  just open the lid and drop them in loose. Then cold crash 2 to 3 days after reaching FG. I've had no issues doing it this way.

Have no way of cold crashing at the moment...need a beer fridge 

[Dozer71]

The cold crashing gets the hops to drop out so don't go into the keg or bottles. They can easily block the transfer. Without cold crashing, would look to put them in a sanitised hop bag, tea ball strainer or similar, but give them plenty of room to expand and move so you can extract the most out of them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, ScottyMac said:

Can you guys give me a quick run down on how you go about dry hopping?

1. Chux cloth (Supersized) pulled from the pack. 
2. Cut off one edge to use as a tie.
3. Lay two clean kitchen plates side be side.
4. Lay the Chux cloth across the plates, rolling the edges in to stay on the plates.
5. Sprinkle the hops in the middle of the cloth.
6. Add about 50 glass marbles, to weigh down the Chux cloth.  The marbles have been sitting in sanitiser solution.
7. Gather up the edges of the cloth in a bundle and use the cloth strip cut off earlier to tie the "bag" together.
8. I have a length of fishing line about 60 cm long with a swivel at one end.  This has been in the same sanitise as the marbles.
9. Attach the hook of the swivel to a couple of places in the tied up end of the Chux cloth and close it.
10. Take the bag on one of the plates to the fermenter.
11. Gently lift the lid (just a standard Coopers FV) and place it aside.
12. Slowly lower the bag into the wort using the fishing line until it submerges.
13. Dangle the end of the line outside the FV.
14. Leave for three days; other than if I notice that the Chux bag has floated to the surface.  Then I will open the FV and give the bag a bit of a jiggle and it usually sinks back down.
15. After three days, wearing spray sanitised powder-free food handling gloves, I will fish out the bag and give it a Lusty squeeze to extract the remaining hoppy goodness.

I often notice foaming up around the bag at step 12.  I hope it is CO2 being released from the beer by the nucleation points created by the bag and the hops.

Other folks do similar but boil and/or sanitise the Chux cloth.  I have done this sanitise step once or twice, but had a slightly off batch on one of those occasions, so I do not bother any more.  I figure that keeping the process dry works pretty well.  It will probably come back to bite me one of these days.

[ScottyMac]

2 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

1. Leave for three days; other than if I notice that the Chux bag has floated to the surface.  Then I will open the FV and give the bag a bit of a jiggle and it usually sinks back down.

I've used a hop sock, tie this up, add some weights and pop it in.  It sounds like I'm doing pretty much what you're saying here.

However, I did notice that even with the weights, the hop sock did float at times.  If it's not fully submerged would this be a source of infection or oxidisation? I'm just looking at all possibilities.

Let me know your thoughts.

Appreciate the thoughts as always @Shamus O'Sean 

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 minutes ago, ScottyMac said:

If it's not fully submerged would this be a source of infection or oxidisation?

I would be surprised if this was the source of any issues.  I have done dozens of dry hop additions that have floated without issues.  Folks who dry hop commando have their hops floating on the top of the wort until they begin to sink.

Your idea to do a side by side might give you some extra info for comparing.

[ScottyMac]

36 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I would be surprised if this was the source of any issues.  I have done dozens of dry hop additions that have floated without issues.  Folks who dry hop commando have their hops floating on the top of the wort until they begin to sink.

Your idea to do a side by side might give you some extra info for comparing.

Sounds like some experimentation is in order.  I just hope I don't waste a lot of beer in the process.

[pilotsh]

On 1/1/2021 at 7:25 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Cut off one edge to use as a tie.

Shamus knows his stuff! 

But if you go the right direction with the “grain” of the Chux ‘cloth’ you can just rip off a whole straight line with hands and don’t need to sanitise scissors!