pilotsh Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) Why do seasoned brewers break sanitisation rules and dry hop? Having been told, "don't add a hydrometer sample back to the wort" and seeing other comments like "don't open the lid unless you really have to", one thing that is fully educated in this forum is sanitisation. And I get it, I really do. No one like their brew ruined by an infection. Even adjuncts, like cacao nibs are added to just boiled water/wort to sanitise them. The ROTM Lamington Stout recipe asks for "toast the desiccated coconut until just golden" before adding it to the fermentation vessel mid ferment- I get it: toasting the coconut in the pan sanitises it. But, then I see a problem: some recipes, or even people posting, add hop pellets to the FV, with no sanitisation methods whatsover, in a "dry hop"???!!!!?! Did I miss a meeting? Dry-hopping, as I understand it so far, involves adding hops straight into the FV, mid-ferment. No boil. No hot water. No sanitisation of any kind. Just add them, like that!? WHAT!?!? Knowledge sponge (and BS filter) ready! Edited October 21, 2020 by pilotsh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Lao Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) Hi Pilotsh, When I dry hop the nylon bag they go in is sprayed with Starsan a couple of minutes beforehand, to kill any nasties. Hops are antibacterial in nature as well, I am sure I have read somewhere, someone else will be able to confirm this I hope !! By adding them in at the end of fermentation, there is a fair amount of alcohol in the brew ( in mine it is usually 6% ABV), so it is harder to get infections in beer with alcohol in it as well, but not impossible... I make sure everything is well Starsanned and the lid is open for about 3.5 seconds! Cheers James Edited October 21, 2020 by James Lao 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Corner Brewing Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Damn good question! You’ll find most brewers will either dry hop “commando style” by just dumping the hops straight in, the cold crashing to get the hop matter to drop into the trub, or use a hop sock or hop balls or the like which is sterilised before use. As to the hops themselves, hops are naturally anti-bacterial (someone correct me if I’m not fully right on this) and will generally resist any infection on themselves, so are unlikely to cause an infection on their own merit. Thats how I’ve read it anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 As above, the hops bag (or hop sock) is sprayed beforehand. If you want to get really fussy about opening the lid, you can use magnets - stick a sanitised one in the hop sock and use a 2nd one to clamp the sock to the side of the FV (or top) then when ready to dry hop, pull the external magnet and the sock drops in. Personally I have started making hops tea which goes in at yeast pitch. It's made in a coffee plungert with water between 80° - 90° which then sits for 20+ minutes then strained in and the FV sealed. I've discovered I'm not THAT big a hophead and prefer more subtle flavours and aromas and the tea does it perfectly. I haven't done any comparison but I don't thin k the tea version has the same rapid hop fade as dry hops. At least I can taste the hops right to the end of a keg and some of them have been in the fridge for 4 weeks at times. (4 kegs, 1.5 drinkers - 6.5%+ beers - they tend to hang around a bit ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussiekraut Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 11 hours ago, pilotsh said: Why do seasoned brewers break sanitisation rules and dry hop? Having been told, "don't add a hydrometer sample back to the wort" and seeing other comments like "don't open the lid unless you really have to", one thing that is fully educated in this forum is sanitisation. And I get it, I really do. No one like their brew ruined by an infection. Even adjuncts, like cacao nibs are added to just boiled water/wort to sanitise them. The ROTM Lamington Stout recipe asks for "toast the desiccated coconut until just golden" before adding it to the fermentation vessel mid ferment- I get it: toasting the coconut in the pan sanitises it. But, then I see a problem: some recipes, or even people posting, add hop pellets to the FV, with no sanitisation methods whatsover, in a "dry hop"???!!!!?! Did I miss a meeting? Dry-hopping, as I understand it so far, involves adding hops straight into the FV, mid-ferment. No boil. No hot water. No sanitisation of any kind. Just add them, like that!? WHAT!?!? Knowledge sponge (and BS filter) ready! You have thought about this a lot have you As James and Newbrews have pointed out, Hops themselves have anti-bacterial properties and act as a preservative. The container used is usually sanitised and the hands that put tit into the FV are too...or they should be. The same goes for when the hop bag is taken out of the FV after a few days. Another thing to keep in mind is that when fermentation nears the end, there is enough alcohol in the beer to help prevent infections. This in combination with the preservative properties of the hops, you get a fair bit of protection. The situation is different to when you are at the start of the brewing process. Having said that, you can still introduce something nasty to your beer. Just the chances are smaller. As for opening the FV, open fermentation was rather common back in the day and even now there are commercial breweries who use open fermentation vessels. It's not necessarily a bad thing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 @pilotsh a very good question. I haven't done a dry hop yet (only hop teas on brew day) but it won't be long before I do, as I'm keen to get an XPA going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotsh Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said: there is enough alcohol in the beer to help prevent infections. I keep seeing this being said, but I was under the impression that 60% ethanol minimum was need to kill germs. At least near instantly (like in hand sanitser for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 52 minutes ago, MUZZY said: @pilotsh a very good question. I haven't done a dry hop yet (only hop teas on brew day) but it won't be long before I do, as I'm keen to get an XPA going. My XPA came out quite 'sharp' with hops flavours, certainly far more than you get in (say) the Coopers XPA even though it was their recipe - the changes I made were etra grain rather than anything that would sharpen the flavour. It took about 3 weeks in the keg before it mellowed to the point where the hops didn't overpower everything else. Now it is a very nice drop indeed, with good flavour and aroma. Previous XPA's with hops tea were far less sharp intially and though they improved in quality over time, the hops remained uite balanced till frothy time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergy1987 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I boil stainless steel tea strainer balls, and then throw them in Starsan before adding dry hops to them....I think most brewers will do something very similar before throwing foreign items in beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 30 minutes ago, pilotsh said: I keep seeing this being said, but I was under the impression that 60% ethanol minimum was need to kill germs. At least near instantly (like in hand sanitser for example). De pends on the germs. And there's a difference between killing something already established and just preventing something from getting a toehold in your brew. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Just now, Fergy1987 said: I boil stainless steel tea strainer balls, and then throw them in Starsan before adding dry hops to them....I think most brewers will do something very similar before throwing foreign items in beer. Either of those would be enough. But why kill when you can overkill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergy1987 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, Journeyman said: Either of those would be enough. But why kill when you can overkill? I also then pick them up with large sanitised metal tongs while wearing a hazmat suit 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, Fergy1987 said: I also then pick them up with large sanitised metal tongs while wearing a hazmat suit In a sterile room flooded with dry water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotsh Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 I like the idea of hop tea: minimises the risk of infection! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Bacteria cannot handle alpha acids, so the more hops and higher IBUs the less likely an infection will occur. Yes, if you drop the hops in a dirty bag or let other foreign substances in then the chance of infection increases, which is where cleanliness and sanitation comes in. https://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/337.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickers Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I've done 5 so far (consumed 3, 1 should be ready tomorrow and another on the go at the moment) and although the recipes say a clean chux straight out of the packet is good enough, i still give the chux a 15 minute soak in sanitiser before adding hops. also started to tie off with cooking twine (also sanitised) and weigh it down a little with some marbles. before bottling i extract with sanitised stainless steel tongs and give it a little squeeze with a food-grade-gloved hand. i feel i have enough bases covered there also if i'm taking off the collar at the same time i'll pop on a new sanitised lid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 I spray everything that will touch my beer and everything that will touch anything that touches my beer... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussiekraut Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 21 minutes ago, Journeyman said: I spray everything that will touch my beer and everything that will touch anything that touches my beer... You even sanitise the sanitiser 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchBastard Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 You also have to take into account the pH of the fermenting brew as well. As pH Drops during ferment, it becomes harder for foreign baddies to stay active or even alive. Not impossible, but a factor. hops are not antibacterial but they are anti microbial. Anti bacterial meaning something kills bacteria and anti microbial being prohibitive to growth. If you clean your gear properly and get rid of all soiling, introduction of bacteria during dry hopping would be highly unlikely unless you really kook it. Oxygen ingress is your main concern during dry hopping but that’s a whole different thread. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilotsh Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) To add to the discussion, I see in the USA a few references to hop leaves. And they would be handled different, I assume. From my guess, manufactured hops pellets are heat treated when they are vacuum sealed, but I don’t want to assume. oh, and for the record, so far, I would imagine I would be a fan of hop at flameout, and not strain, so that I know the hops is sanitised. Or a hop tea. But still looking at options researching. Edited October 22, 2020 by pilotsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 15 hours ago, Aussiekraut said: You even sanitise the sanitiser Yep. That bottle gets a regular wipe over. Even told SWMBO if she comes in the room while I'm doing brew stuff she gets sanitised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lickedthestamp Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 On 10/22/2020 at 11:31 AM, Journeyman said: As above, the hops bag (or hop sock) is sprayed beforehand. If you want to get really fussy about opening the lid, you can use magnets - stick a sanitised one in the hop sock and use a 2nd one to clamp the sock to the side of the FV (or top) then when ready to dry hop, pull the external magnet and the sock drops in. Personally I have started making hops tea which goes in at yeast pitch. It's made in a coffee plungert with water between 80° - 90° which then sits for 20+ minutes then strained in and the FV sealed. I've discovered I'm not THAT big a hophead and prefer more subtle flavours and aromas and the tea does it perfectly. I haven't done any comparison but I don't thin k the tea version has the same rapid hop fade as dry hops. At least I can taste the hops right to the end of a keg and some of them have been in the fridge for 4 weeks at times. (4 kegs, 1.5 drinkers - 6.5%+ beers - they tend to hang around a bit ) Hi @Journeyman I recently tried my hand at my first brew using hops (Fair Drinkum Pale Ale). Was very happy with the result but found that a week after opening the first bottle (so 3 weeks after bottling) the hop flavour was already starting to fade. The recipe called for steeping 25g of Vic Secret & Enigma hops in 2L of just boiled steeped crystal malt water (wort? not sure of the correct term) before cooling and then straining/adding to the FV. Then dry hopping another 25g of VS/Engima hops in the FV after the krausen subsides. I am just wondering - would the 'hop tea' you are describing be pretty much the same as what the recipe does when it says to steep the hops? Because if so I was thinking that maybe it might be better then to steep the whole 50g of the VS/Enigma hops and not bother with the dry hopping? If I understand you it should result in a longer lasting - though more subtle - hop flavour and would also negate any chance of infection through adding a dry hop, which sounds to me like a win-win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus O'Sean Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 9 hours ago, lickedthestamp said: Hi @Journeyman I recently tried my hand at my first brew using hops (Fair Drinkum Pale Ale). Was very happy with the result but found that a week after opening the first bottle (so 3 weeks after bottling) the hop flavour was already starting to fade. The recipe called for steeping 25g of Vic Secret & Enigma hops in 2L of just boiled steeped crystal malt water (wort? not sure of the correct term) before cooling and then straining/adding to the FV. Then dry hopping another 25g of VS/Engima hops in the FV after the krausen subsides. I am just wondering - would the 'hop tea' you are describing be pretty much the same as what the recipe does when it says to steep the hops? Because if so I was thinking that maybe it might be better then to steep the whole 50g of the VS/Enigma hops and not bother with the dry hopping? If I understand you it should result in a longer lasting - though more subtle - hop flavour and would also negate any chance of infection through adding a dry hop, which sounds to me like a win-win? I have not gone down the hop tea route yet. But I have heard it referred to as a process for hop-heads. So it might be a good idea to do the whole lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journeyman Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 10 hours ago, lickedthestamp said: I am just wondering - would the 'hop tea' you are describing be pretty much the same as what the recipe does when it says to steep the hops? Because if so I was thinking that maybe it might be better then to steep the whole 50g of the VS/Enigma hops and not bother with the dry hopping? If I understand you it should result in a longer lasting - though more subtle - hop flavour and would also negate any chance of infection through adding a dry hop, which sounds to me like a win-win? I don't think it is quite the same thing - steeping it in wort causes an interaction with the malt/hops. (as I understand things) I am unsure what the difference might be to just steeping in water. My impression is the tea does as you describe but I haven't done any rigorous testing - at the time of deciding to go the tea route my brews were different enough I couldn't swear to the results. But I like the effects I get using the tea & I don't seem to get the initial sharp hops 'bite' I've noted with a couple of the dry hoops ones I did. I prefer what I get now but YMMV. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lickedthestamp Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 On 10/24/2020 at 9:19 AM, Shamus O'Sean said: I have not gone down the hop tea route yet. But I have heard it referred to as a process for hop-heads. So it might be a good idea to do the whole lot. On 10/24/2020 at 10:52 AM, Journeyman said: I don't think it is quite the same thing - steeping it in wort causes an interaction with the malt/hops. (as I understand things) I am unsure what the difference might be to just steeping in water. My impression is the tea does as you describe but I haven't done any rigorous testing - at the time of deciding to go the tea route my brews were different enough I couldn't swear to the results. But I like the effects I get using the tea & I don't seem to get the initial sharp hops 'bite' I've noted with a couple of the dry hoops ones I did. I prefer what I get now but YMMV. Thanks guys. I am pretty certain to do another Fair Drinkum pale ale as I basically have plenty of crystal malt and hops left over - plus I quite like it - so for the next one I might try adding either the full amount of hops (25g VS & 25g Enigma) to the steeped crystal malt liquid initially or instead add the second 25g VS/Enigma via a hop tea instead of dry hopping. We actually have a french press sitting in the cupboard that hasn't been used in years so would be good to find a use for it. @Journeyman you add your hop tea to the FV just before pitching yes? Any thoughts on adding it later, say at a similar point to when you might dry hop - do you see any issues (apart from the infection risk) to adding hop tea at a later point? Off the top of my head I am thinking that you would need to let the hop tea cool down enough so it isn't too hot and also as you are adding additional liquid you would need to account for this when filling the FV (so if adding 1L hop tea to a 23L recipe you would only fill to 22L) otherwise you would dilute the brew and reduce the ABV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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