First Partial Long and Shoddy

[James Lao]

Hi all,

Did my first partial mash last night with 1.5kg of Maris Otter in 7 litres of water,  placed in oven set to 66degC for 2 hours ( the long part)

At the end of 2 hours took the pot out and measured temperature- it was only 64degC - probably should have checked that earlier!

Sparged with 2.5 litres of water and probably had about 8 litres in the 19L pot set boil for 35mins ( that’s the short and shoddy part).

Got 4.8L into FV at 1.058 SG, brewers friend calculator outs this at 58% efficiency?
Think I only used to get about 65% with Robobrew last year. 

Only had a 10cm sieve from Coles to strain the grains into the brew pot, will get a bigger one next time, think this hindered my efficiency?

Probably should have checked Lustys partial brew day thread before doing this but anyway ..

Had a taste from the hydrometer and I think there will be a big difference in flavour with this one compared to my normal steep and hop boil extract brews.
Fresh biscuity malt flavour from the MO, yum!!

Cant wait for this one!

Happy days!

James

Edited June 19, 2020 by James Lao
Grammar

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, James Lao said:

Hi all,

Did my first partial mash last night with 1.5kg of Maris Otter in 7 litres of water,  placed in oven set to 66degC for 2 hours ( the long part)

At the end of 2 hours took the pot out and measured temperature- it was only 64degC - probably should have checked that earlier!

Sparged with 2.5 litres of water and probably had about 8 litres in the 19L pot set boil for 35mins ( that’s the short and shoddy part).

Got 4.8L into FV at 1.058 SG, brewers friend calculator outs this at 58% efficiency?
Think I only used to get about 65% with Robobrew last year. 

Only had a 10cm sieve from Coles to strain the grains into the brew pot, will get a bigger one next time, think this hindered my efficiency?

Probably should have checked Lustys partial brew day thread before doing this but anyway ..

Had a taste from the hydrometer and I think there will be a big difference in flavour with this one compared to my normal steep and hop boil extract brews.
Fresh biscuity malt flavour from the MO, yum!!

Cant wait for this one!

Happy days!

James

Keep updating this James, ive got a partial happening soon as i get some temperature control gear. Interested to see how yours goes. 

[James Lao]

Will do mate!

I dropped the 1.5kg can of Coopers LLME and put in 1.5kg of Maris Otter, to my usual IPA recipe.

According to Ian H xls if I hit 70% efficiency it would be the same fermentables in the brew as the LLME, but I was miles off- only managed 58%

I think I was impatient with the sparge and could have gotten a bit more out of the grains.

Didnt do a mash out either which I will do next time.

Was loving the smell and taste of the sample I had last night though, I think it will bring a fair bit of improvement  at the glass

Cheers

 

James

 

[Norris!]

Awesome! Great work James.

[Panther Branch Brewing]

After doing a few of these you'll refine your process and get better efficiency. If you're doing this "Brew in a bag" you'll get better efficiency grinding finer.

Do keep us posted on how this turns out!

[James Lao]

Hey Legends,

Kegged this one last night and having the first few  swigs now!

It got down to 1.010 which is about 2-3 points lower than my  extract IPAs. (So about 6.3%ABV)

The fresh grain taste is unmistakeable, bloody delish!!

Think this is my best one yet!!

It is a bit cloudy but is only early days (didn’t use Whirlfloc but is fined with gelatine).

Cant wait to brew the next one.

Bought a decent strainer from Ikea the other day so hopefully will improve on the efficiency.
 

Cheers

James

[Pale Man]

Sounds really good.

[Lettucegrove]

The jump from extracts to partial mashes is an extremely rewarding one. I'll never forget that big hit of freshness that comes with using a couple of kilos of grain, as you said @James Lao bloody DELISH!!

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, James Lao said:

Hey Legends,

Kegged this one last night and having the first few  swigs now!

It got down to 1.010 which is about 2-3 points lower than my  extract IPAs. (So about 6.3%ABV)

The fresh grain taste is unmistakeable, bloody delish!!

Think this is my best one yet!!

It is a bit cloudy but is only early days (didn’t use Whirlfloc but is fined with gelatine).

Cant wait to brew the next one.

Bought a decent strainer from Ikea the other day so hopefully will improve on the efficiency.
 

Cheers

James

Out of interest what was the full recipe?

[James Lao]

Hi Pale Man,

Recipe was :

Coopers Lager can

0.75kg LDME

0.25kg Wheat DME

1.5kg Maris Otter ( 7L mash in oven set to 66degC for 120mins, 2L sparge, 35min boil)

0.2kg Carmunich II 

0.4kg white sugar

 

HOPS

25g Citra and Simcoe 10mins

25g Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic

Dry Hops

Citra 35g

Mosaic 25g

Simcoe 20g

El Dorado 25g

 

IBUs 51

OG 1.058

FG 1.010
 

Cheers

 

James

[Pale Man]

40 minutes ago, James Lao said:

Hi Pale Man,

Recipe was :

Coopers Lager can

0.75kg LDME

0.25kg Wheat DME

1.5kg Maris Otter ( 7L mash in oven set to 66degC for 120mins, 2L sparge, 35min boil)

0.2kg Carmunich II 

0.4kg white sugar

 

HOPS

25g Citra and Simcoe 10mins

25g Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic

Dry Hops

Citra 35g

Mosaic 25g

Simcoe 20g

El Dorado 25g

 

IBUs 51

OG 1.058

FG 1.010
 

Cheers

 

James

Looks so delicious. A fair bit bigger than my next brew. Just waiting for this ale to finish that keeps on going. 

My partial is

Coopers Lager Can.

2 kg of German Pilsner Malt.

500 grams of Muntons Wheat Malt.

25 grams of Hallerteu, 25 grams of Hersbrucker, last 10 or so minutes of the boil.

Saf 189 X 2 at about 13 degrees. 

Should be really tasty. I'm going to diatecyl rest and cold crash. 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Pale Man

[Hairy]

On 6/19/2020 at 3:00 PM, James Lao said:

Hi all,

Did my first partial mash last night with 1.5kg of Maris Otter in 7 litres of water,  placed in oven set to 66degC for 2 hours ( the long part)

At the end of 2 hours took the pot out and measured temperature- it was only 64degC - probably should have checked that earlier!

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this one.

I used to always mash a little lower when doing partials. I found it countered the extract which tends to finish a little higher.

[BlackSands]

Cool - and congrats!  I think partial-mash is a great "best of both worlds" approach to homebrewing.  It allows the brewer to keep things at a stove top level while offering all the advantages associated with AG brewing.  

I typically use 2.5 - 3.0kg grain and routinely achieve 65% efficiency with my partials and AG (all done at a stove top level), though it has been as low as 55% and on a really good day over 80%!  And that's with a 60 minute mash.   I can't readily account for such wide variations in efficiency.   To make things easier to manage I mash in a grain bag and put my mash/boil pot in a pre-warmed oven to help hold the temperature for the duration.  I use a very large sieve which I simply slip under the bag once it's raised up out of the wort.  It sits nicely in the 20 litre stock pot I'm using allowing the wort to drain out.  I also sparge which is easily done by simply pouring hot water over the bag.   My boil times are between 30-45 minutes usually - depending on hop additions.  I have boiled as short as 15-minutes in true "short & shoddy" style and that beer appeared to be as good as any I've made.   

When I first ventured into PM brewing I replicated an extract beer I'd just brewed (an amber ale) and did an informal A/B comparison of the two.  Initially I didn't really notice much but after a bit of A/B'ing back and forth it soon became apparent that the partial had a cleaner and fresher aspect to it - common descriptions you'll pretty much always read when someone talks about AG vs extract beers!  Later I did my first full AG using this method, but a half-batch size and again did an A/B comparison - partial mash vs AG.  This time I really couldn't pick an obvious difference in terms of "clean and fresh".  It seems that once you get the grain vs extract ratio to a certain level the difference becomes negligible.  

While I used to regularly use the OS lager can as a base for a partial mash beer more often these days I'm actually brewing lower gravity AG beers (3.5 - 4% -ish) using this same method, 20litre batches with 3.5kg grain, which is pretty much the upper limit for my pot. Sometimes I need a small .5kg LME top-up but that's usually less than 15% of the fermentables.  And, somewhat contrary to what I said above re: A/B PM vs AG I've been thinking lately that for lighter styles these AG beers might actually have a slight edge over partial mash versions.   But regardless, AG is cheaper so that alone makes it worthwhile for me.     But when I want a higher OG brew I'll happily go back to using an OS lager can as a PM base.  

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by BlackSands

[James Lao]

I like the pre heated oven part of it with the partial mash, it’s easy to set and forget so to speak.

This recipe is pretty much the same as my usual IPA , but the difference is night and day.

The Beer is a lot lighter in color for starters, it has a lighter mouthfeel as it finished 2-3 points lower.

But the clincher for me is the fresh grain taste at the glass, loving the Maris Otter flavour on this one it’s really noticeable.

When I would try craft beers compared to mine the hoppiness is comparable but it’s that fresh grain flavour I could never get with all extract beers.

Really happy I have done a partial mash and I think I will continue doing them, wasn’t that much extra work or cleaning as I do grain steeps and 10-20minute hop  boils anyway.

Cheers

James

[Otto Von Blotto]

On 6/19/2020 at 11:54 PM, Panther Branch Brewing said:

After doing a few of these you'll refine your process and get better efficiency. If you're doing this "Brew in a bag" you'll get better efficiency grinding finer.

Do keep us posted on how this turns out!

Maybe. 

I haven't done any partials but I have done dozens of BIAB brews in the last 8 years. Milling finer always caused my efficiency to go down, it only went up when I started milling coarser. I also find it easier to drain the bag with a coarse crush, which may account for the increase in efficiency.

It's one of those things that probably should always work the same for everyone, but for some reason it doesn't. I would just try it different ways and figure out which one gives the best efficiency on your system. 

[Cassius]

I'm looking at doing some partials but don't have the gear do do 2-3kg. Since I'm mainly doing 10-12L extract brews at the moment, what do you think is the smallest mash I could do and still make it worthwhile? I'm loving my steep and extract brews but really want to up the grain freshness and drop the colour a bit.

[James Lao]

I have 3 x 7L pots and 1 x 15L pot

I did my 1.5L mash in the 15L pot with 7L last time.

A decent strainer and or a mash bag is the go as well I reckon, to improve efficiency. 

If you are doing 12L now it will be a piece of cake for you.

Cheers

James

[BlackSands]

10 hours ago, Cassius said:

I'm looking at doing some partials but don't have the gear do do 2-3kg. Since I'm mainly doing 10-12L extract brews at the moment, what do you think is the smallest mash I could do and still make it worthwhile? I'm loving my steep and extract brews but really want to up the grain freshness and drop the colour a bit.

I'd mash as much grain as you possibly can i.e.  whatever the upper capacity of your gear allows.   While you'll still benefit from using grain in a smaller mash, i.e. you'll have greater control over your recipe design (and colour control) compared to steeped grains and extract etc, if you want more of the fresh, clean grain influence in the beer then I think aiming for a higher grain/extract ratio is the thing to aim for.   I don't know where the sweet spot is but it seems, from my experience anyway, this probably varies depending on the beer style itself.   i.e. I'm not sure you'd notice much difference between a full extract stout compared to a partial mash one.   I used to routinely do 50/50 - 60/40 partial-mash brews and as mentioned above I generally thought these were on a par with AG.  I now believe for lighter styles this might not be entirely true - so, for them the more grain the better and I now aim for a grain/extract ratio of 75/25 - 85/15 and occasionally 100% grain.  

[Cassius]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear on my current setup. I'm currently doing 10-12L batches using 3L boils for bittering, with or without grain steeps. I'm hoping to buy some large pots and a gas stove setup but my current situation (2nd child arrived so wife off work) doesn't allow for it. I had planned on waiting until I had this new gear to start doing partials but I read this article, which states that a mash as small as 450g can make a noticeable difference in a 19L recipe. With my setup I could probably do a 1kg mash, with 2.6L of water (if I've read the specifics of the article correctly).

So basically my question is: is a 1kg mash in a 10L brew going to make a noticeable difference? Because @BlackSands started talking about styles, I would likely start by trying with some of my American Pale Ale recipes, but would also like to try with my Hefeweizen, which is improving but I'm really missing the 'bready' quality that I love in the commercial ones I drink.

[BlackSands]

8 minutes ago, Cassius said:

So basically my question is: is a 1kg mash in a 10L brew going to make a noticeable difference? Because @BlackSands started talking about styles, I would likely start by trying with some of my American Pale Ale recipes, but would also like to try with my Hefeweizen, which is improving but I'm really missing the 'bready' quality that I love in the commercial ones I drink.

1kg grain in a 10 litre batch, for an average strength beer, and depending on the amount of base grain vs specialty malts used, is probably going to be around 50%-60% of the total fermentables.  That's around the kind of grain/extract ratio I often used in the past, so yes - definitely should make a difference.   And I would say in the case of the Hefe probably more so as there will little specialty malts used. In fact you could probably just use wheat malt in the mash with perhaps a small amount of acidulated malt to help with pH.  

[Hairy]

17 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Sorry, I wasn't very clear on my current setup. I'm currently doing 10-12L batches using 3L boils for bittering, with or without grain steeps. I'm hoping to buy some large pots and a gas stove setup but my current situation (2nd child arrived so wife off work) doesn't allow for it. I had planned on waiting until I had this new gear to start doing partials but I read this article, which states that a mash as small as 450g can make a noticeable difference in a 19L recipe. With my setup I could probably do a 1kg mash, with 2.6L of water (if I've read the specifics of the article correctly).

So basically my question is: is a 1kg mash in a 10L brew going to make a noticeable difference? Because @BlackSands started talking about styles, I would likely start by trying with some of my American Pale Ale recipes, but would also like to try with my Hefeweizen, which is improving but I'm really missing the 'bready' quality that I love in the commercial ones I drink.

A 1kg mash in a 10l batch would make a difference. It is the same as a 2kg mash in a 20l batch which is the equivalent of replacing around 1.5kg liquid malt.

I did all my partials using a 19l SS pot I got from Big W for $20.

[Cassius]

3 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

1kg grain in a 10 litre batch, for an average strength beer, and depending on the amount of base grain vs specialty malts used, is probably going to be around 50%-60% of the total fermentables.  That's around the kind of grain/extract ratio I often used in the past, so yes - definitely should make a difference.   And I would say in the case of the Hefe probably more so as there will little specialty malts used. In fact you could probably just use wheat malt in the mash with perhaps a small amount of acidulated malt to help with pH.  

Amazing! Yeah, that's the reason I started looking at partials; there wasn't really a grain steep I could add to Hefeweizen.

 

3 minutes ago, Hairy said:

A 1kg mash in a 10l batch would make a difference. It is the same as a 2kg mash in a 20l batch which is the equivalent of replacing around 1.5kg liquid malt.

I did all my partials using a 19l SS pot I got from Big W for $20.

Great, thanks. The reason I want to get a portable gas stove is because my current kitchen stove is a really old electrical one that takes ages to boil my current 3L boils, so I'm not sure it'll be efficient for a larger boil, even if I get a large pot for cheap.

Sorry @James Lao for hijacking 

[BlackSands]

22 minutes ago, Cassius said:

The reason I want to get a portable gas stove...

Look into portable induction cookers - a MUCH better option for this situation IMO.  I bought one for $45.  I boil around 12 - 15 litres of wort on one of these.  Though I've never actually timed it I think as an estimate It get's up from mash temp to boil in around 10 - 15 minutes.

Edited July 2, 2020 by BlackSands

[James Lao]

Did my 2nd long and shoddy partial last night, for an ESB.

Had 1.7kg of grain (1.5kg of Maris Otter and 0.2 of Caramunich II).

Mashed for 2 hours in 8L, and sparged in 4L.

Got 8.7L into fermenter at 1.042 SG (30 min boil).

This gives me brewhouse efficiency at 68%

Much happier with this, better sparge and drain has got me an extra 10% efficiency.

The Caramunich was only cracked with a rolling pin, so might start getting this milled as well to improve efficiency?

When pouring the grain in could really tell the difference from the rolling pin grain to the properly milled grain.

Also had the oven set a bit higher this time so mash temp was 66-67degC when taken out of the oven.

Can't wait to taste this one!

 

Cheers

 

James

[Journeyman]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:06 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

Milling finer always caused my efficiency to go down, it only went up when I started milling coarser

Do you have a reason for this? It seems counter-intuitive. Or more likely my misunderstanding - I thought the efficiency depended on the access to the internals of the grain so a finer grind would expose it more to the liquid.