First fermentation duration?

[Blair of Ale]

G'day lads (and potentially others),

I have just finished bottling my first official brew. It's a Coopers dark ale. I had technically two shots at this the first was an Australian pale ale but I feared that it gained an infection due to a heavy sour taste, threw it to the sink and started again- I'm now told this wasn't the wisest move.

This is my first time posting on this community and I'm hoping its alive and well. I cleaned the crap outta the equipment prior to this bottled brew and still feel it might be infected as I can taste a sour aftertaste ever so slightly..

Am I leaving it to ferment too long? 

This one was 20 days. The gravity was stable prior to this however I was told under 10 days is waaaay too short of a time... Can anyone tell me of a brew they completed the first fermentation process in under 10 days? The Cooper videos say approx. 7 days but forums I had read stated this was not enough time by a long shot... And to leave it for at least 20 days. Now I'm thinking that was bad advice.

Any advice would be hugely appreciated!!

I am going to get this right, be it 3 times or 50 times... I'm determined. 

Thanks in advance,

b

[Journeyman]

First we need to know the conditions you are brewing in. 

Is the temp stable where the fermenter (FV) is? Does it fluctuate? Any idea what approx temp you are at? Ideally we run with a temp controlled fridge - yeast is pretty adaptable to temps within a range but temps that bounce around temp to produce odd or off flavours.

Are you using a Coopers kit? This means the FV, bottles, can, yeast, bottling wand, hydrometer. You might also see Coopers kit meaning just the can with yeast but did you buy the full kit?

Did you take any gravity readings? For this you need an hydrometer and the readings would look like 1.046 or similar. SG = Specific Gravity, OG means the 1st reading when you are just starting the ferment and FG = Final Gravity. Try not to regard bubbles as a significant sign of ferment - what matters is when the FG is the same for 2 days or more. 

So... fermenting normally does NOT take 20 days and most of us are bottling not too far off 10 days after pitching the yeast into the FV. My brews in a temp-control fridge are usually at FG in about 5 days so I am cold crashing (CC) on abut day 7. CC is dropping the temp right down to 1° or 2° for a couple of days to 'settle' the sediment and particulates in the brew to leave a nice clear beer.

So I'm normally looking at bottling after 9 - 10 days.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Journeyman

[ben 10]

6 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

So I'm normally looking at bottling after 9 - 10 days

I thought the accepted wisdom was up to maybe 14 days then cold crash?

[Journeyman]

Just now, Ben 10 said:

I thought the accepted wisdom was up to maybe 14 days then cold crash?

I'm going by my FG readings. I can't think of any time it wasn't done in 6 days although a couple have been left a bit longer simply due to not being able to take the next step as soon as I was at FG.

[ben 10]

Sposed to leave a few days after FG for by product clean up.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Not enough yeast = stressed yeast = funny flavours = slow ferment. If you used 1 packet of yeast I'd say that's your primary issue. As J man said temp control is important but my guess is you needed more yeast for a clean quick ferment.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Greeny1525229549

[Journeyman]

8 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

Sposed to leave a few days after FG for by product clean up.

I usually give it a day at 22° for cleanup before CC. 

More recently I have just started putting a step in of 2 days at 14° for dry hops after the temp rise for clean up. But until we know what @Blair of Ale has for a system all that gets a bit complex for a 1st answer.

But, here is what I am now doing, last couple of brews...

Day ?? & ?? - usually 5 & 6 = FG.

Day 7 = 22° for clean up

Day 8 & 9 = Dry hop at 14°

Day 10 & 11 = CC

Day 12, bottle... (soon to be keg  )

[Blair of Ale]

32 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Is the temp stable where the fermenter (FV) is?

Thanks so much for the replies, guys.. awesome! 

OKay.. so the temp is one thing I know I'm weak on, it's currently in a position where the temp fluctuates from day to night between 18-23 degrees. 

I've got an old fridge out the back that I can use.. so do I just turn it off and use it as a somewhat temp. controlled storage unit? 

I feel I can address this issue quite easily with the right guidance. 

I am using a Coopers Kit. The brew kit (23 ltr) not the craft kit. The only item that isnt from the kit is the hydrometer. I had to purchase another online as the coopers one was broken by my awesome 6 year son....   

Gravity... I failed on taking the initial gravity reading as I didn't have a Hydrometer at the time, that being said, I now own 10 so I'm not going to run into that problem again.

I initially took a reading at 6 days. I'll be more across it on my next brew which I plan  to start this evening, once sanitation is to a point where I'm content. 

I'm going to do a bit more research on Cold Crashing.. as I've mentioned.. I'm completely new to this and that's the first time I've heard that reference, but it sounds like I really need to get this temp situation in order. I don't have a thermometer to check but whats the average temp. of a fridge that's been turned off? anyone know? 

I truly appreciate the assistance,  what a brilliant community you've all made!

b

 

[Blair of Ale]

44 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Not enough yeast = stressed yeast = funny flavours = slow ferment. If you used 1 packet of yeast I'd say that's your primary issue. As J man said temp control is important but my guess is you needed more yeast for a clean quick ferment.

 

Yeah right... so you would suggest to add a bit more yeast as a standard? Can this be purchased on the Coopers site as a separate item? I couldn't find anything, just now, that looked like the little pre-measured packs that I'm minimally familiar with? What would you suggest?

[Journeyman]

1 minute ago, Blair of Ale said:

OKay.. so the temp is one thing I know I'm weak on, it's currently in a position where the temp fluctuates from day to night between 18-23 degrees. 

I've got an old fridge out the back that I can use.. so do I just turn it off and use it as a somewhat temp. controlled storage unit? 

18° - 23° is reasonable. The fridge could help smooth that out a bit if it is not exposed. But it WILL change temps according to outside temps - old fridges are really all that efficient at holding the temp which is why you hear the compressor start and stop regularly. But at the least it can 'flatten the curve' as we are being told is so valuable these days.

You could use a sleeping bag or a blanket or similar to wrap the FV inside the fridge to smooth the changes even more.

Some guys use a wet towel, ends draped in water bucket or dish and a fan to drive evaporation and so cool the FV. Or you could use a mechanical or electronic timer switch that lets you set how much time on and off the fridge runs - that would need experimenting to get the timing right.

But what most of us use is a dual temp controller such as the Inkbird ITC-308 or similar (around $50) - the fridge and a heating device (heat pad, heat belt, aquarium heater or even an incandescent light bulb) both plug in and the controller turns them on and off as needed. Inside the fridge (turned on to max) would be ideal and it can be set to as little as +/- 0.3° for the ebst steady temp for fermenting. Most ferment ales around 18° or 20° while lagers are down at 10° to 12°.

[Blair of Ale]

Alright, great.. I'll have a look for the InkBird ITC now have a look at turning the fridge off and using it as a temp controlled space. Heat belt sounds like an idea. To the google for me.  Thanks a pintful!

b

 

[Journeyman]

1 minute ago, Blair of Ale said:

Yeah right... so you would suggest to add a bit more yeast as a standard? Can this be purchased on the Coopers site as a separate item? I couldn't find anything, just now, that looked like the little pre-measured packs that I'm minimally familiar with? What would you suggest?

Most LHBS (Local Home Brew Shops) carry yeast. Most of us buy our preference from them either local or online. I use Beerbelly in Adelaide but look locally. Read up on the yeast types and what they are good for. I like Nottingham because it has a wide range of temps it works well in, from mid-20's down to lager temps, it gives a clean beer and ferments to a higher percentage than most. US-05 is popular for American style ales and many other types of beer.

Some come in 5.5 g sachets, some in 11 g sachets. Some of the guys on here swear by liquid yeasts - my opinion is that's a complication for now I'd rather leave until I'm more expert at all the other stuff.

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, Blair of Ale said:

This one was 20 days. The gravity was stable prior to this however I was told under 10 days is waaaay too short of a time... Can anyone tell me of a brew they completed the first fermentation process in under 10 days? The Cooper videos say approx. 7 days but forums I had read stated this was not enough time by a long shot... And to leave it for at least 20 days. Now I'm thinking that was bad advice.

20 days is ridiculous. I don't know what forum would suggest that, but best not go there again if others agreed with whoever gave you that advice. Any longer than 2 weeks at ambient temp risks infection.

A kit and kilo will ferment out in 4-6 days. If you only did a kg of fermentables, then yeast isn't the issue, you wouldn't have needed more than what was supplied.

Everyone here has different processes, but I bottle my beers as soon as they've hit FG. I don't cold crash, I just bottle it, but I always put the temp up a few degrees for the last few days.. So usually day 7, 8 or 9 depending on what my hydrometer says.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Journeyman]

One other point - The 'bitter' taste you mention - I've had that when tasting the sample at the end of a brew but then after 2 weeks in the bottle it's gone and I have good beer. Keep tasting the samples so your palate gets an education but don't chuck any more brews unless you can SEE the contamination and it stinks.

[Journeyman]

1 minute ago, Lab Cat said:

20 days is ridiculous. I don't know what forum would suggest that, but best not go there again if others agreed with whoever gave you that advice. Any longer than 2 weeks at ambient temp risks infection

 I was trying to be polite.

[Lab Cat]

56 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Not enough yeast = stressed yeast = funny flavours = slow ferment. If you used 1 packet of yeast I'd say that's your primary issue. As J man said temp control is important but my guess is you needed more yeast for a clean quick ferment

Why? He hasn't said he's done more than a kg, and he's brewed ambient. Can't see yeast being any factor here.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Blair of Ale]

Haha.. alright. Definitely bad advice then. It was a US DIY brew site that I'd found. I'll see if I can bring it back up at some point. 

I certainly couldn't see any infection as per the stuff I'd seen Online, though I had read that getting rid of it prior was a TERRIBLE action to follow. Rest assured, I won't be repeating that. 

Alright, so beyond 6-7 days... Check daily for FG and if it's stable- bottling is recommended regardless of additional steps (I'm currently reading up on CC)

 

Cheers

b

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeast could certainly be a factor if it was subjected to poor storage conditions. 

Agreed that 20 days is way too long. It should be at FG in 7 days or so at the most. A few extra days for cleanup and into the bottles, or cold crash for a few days to a week then bottle it. Can't say I'm a fan of bottling as soon as it hits FG, the beer is better for having a few days to clean up first.

This isn't so much an infection issue but the yeast can begin self destructing and cause off flavours, although it's usually a rotten meat/Vegemite type flavour, not sour. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto

[Blair of Ale]

7 minutes ago, Lab Cat said:

Why? He hasn't said he's done more than a kg, and he's brewed ambient. Can't see yeast being any factor here.

I've only ever used the Coopers supplied stuff- 1.7 kg of the brewing extract from the can, the recommended brew enhancer and the 7g brewing yeast supplied. 

Hope this is what you meant. 

b

[ben 10]

11 minutes ago, Lab Cat said:

Any longer than 2 weeks at ambient temp risks infection.

Not always... my Flanders went for 6 months!!!!!

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 minute ago, Ben 10 said:

Not always... my Flanders went for 6 months!!!!!

Some might consider that style infected anyway

[ben 10]

@Blair of Ale from my understanding up to 14 days giving the yeast ample time for by product clean up is what you should be aiming for. A few days past FG is the way to go.
We know what we are doing but we may all argue a bit. Everyone here makes good beer and e have a few different ideas and ways of doing things.

 

20 days can lead to the yeast eating itself - autolysis (I think) which is not ideal unless it is wanted.

[Journeyman]

1 minute ago, Blair of Ale said:

I've only ever used the Coopers supplied stuff- 1.7 kg of the brewing extract from the can, the recommended brew enhancer and the 7g brewing yeast supplied. 

Hope this is what you meant. 

Once you get the brewing side sorted a possible next step is away from the brew enhancers and into using extract malts. The enhancers contain sugar which ferments completely - you could use a can and 1 kg of sugar to make a beer but it will be thin and likely dry. Using extracts provides a fuller beer, better head and mouth feel.

But let's get you confident you can make a beer first.

[ben 10]

Just now, Journeyman said:

The enhancers contain sugar which ferments completely

Maltodextrin doesn't......    

[Blair of Ale]

Otto Von Blotto- what do you mean by 'the beer is better for having a few days to clean up anyways'?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, bro.