Daily diary of a virgin (first ever) home brew!

[pilotsh]

 

37 minutes ago, UncleStavvy said:

Just be fussy when you pick your tins off the shelf. Fresh yeast sachets work a treat when new and pitched at the right temp. I've done both now and my best pro tip is don't rehydrate the yeast before mixing your wort.

Well that's the thing, I did buy a new yeast sachet (The can I had was 4 years old), but it was a generic US05 yeast, so maybe not good quality.
But anyhow, my next brew will be with the can that came in my big coopers kit: BB date is Oct 2021.

I bought a few other cans and they are all BB July 2021 or later, except a stout which is March 2021.

So I'll sprinkle again with the Larger kit and see what happens.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Rehydration takes less than half an hour, and it's done in plain water so there shouldn't be any foaming over the jug anyway. Just something to keep in mind if you do decide to do it at some point. 

[Journeyman]

3 hours ago, UncleStavvy said:

Get the wort temp right first or you'll be frantically sanitising a larger container as your very active yeast bubbles over the top of your pyrex jug. Not speaking from experience mind....this happened to a another newb brewer I know

Sounds like he made a starter, not just rehydrated. And with the starter version, you don't leave it that long - when there's a nice head forming is when you pitch it.

[UncleStavvy]

3 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Sounds like he made a starter, not just rehydrated. And with the starter version, you don't leave it that long - when there's a nice head forming is when you pitch it.

Yep, just a teaspoon of sugar in 200ml of cooled boiled water

[pilotsh]

I was just going to stir the yeast in some plain tepid water (no sugar) and leave for 15 minutes then pitch it into FV.

I have a feeling my dry yeast I sprinkled on my first brew was sluggish because it was overwhelmed by the wort.

Now I have clarified, what do we think: pitch dry or rehydrated yeast?

[Titan]

16 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

when there's a nice head forming is when you pitch it.

You can pitch it but the point of making a starter is to double or tripple cell count. Pitching early may not achieve the required amount. Generally make your starter let it finish. Harvest some for next brew. Stick it in the fridge until brew day when yeast seperates pour off the beer leaving just enough to swirl it up then pitch.

[pilotsh]

Saturday 25th April: 374 hours (15.6 days) from pitch to bottling.

Brew Temp: 22.4C.

FG: 1014.5, Calculated ABV, 5.45% (4.95+0.5)

Colour: Darker Orange-Brown, not as goldy. Haze cleared up a little.

Nose: Strong apricot, stone fruit, peach and pineapple. Mild treacle/molasses.

Palate/ Body: Maltiness, mild tart fruits, apricot, pineapple.

Comments: Bottling Day. I had to turn the tap on and off because the log tube thing was trickling and not sealing properly. Next bottling with try the one from the big coopers kit.
Also kept the trub to halve it for two loaves of Amble Ale Bread. First one is in the bread machine now kneading into a dough and I will oven bake it later today! Photos of that to follow in another post.

Photo(s):

 

[Journeyman]

20 minutes ago, Titan said:

You can pitch it but the point of making a starter is to double or tripple cell count. Pitching early may not achieve the required amount. Generally make your starter let it finish. Harvest some for next brew. Stick it in the fridge until brew day when yeast seperates pour off the beer leaving just enough to swirl it up then pitch.

There's 2 types of starters. The viability starter and a vitality starter. 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

25 minutes ago, pilotsh said:

I was just going to stir the yeast in some plain tepid water (no sugar) and leave for 15 minutes then pitch it into FV.

I have a feeling my dry yeast I sprinkled on my first brew was sluggish because it was overwhelmed by the wort.

Now I have clarified, what do we think: pitch dry or rehydrated yeast?

That's the usual way to rehydrate dry yeast. No sugar needed. 

Personally I prefer rehydrating it, but that's more because of the way I make my wort. When it's tipped into the fermenter it creates about 6 inches or more of foam. Not much use having the yeast sitting around on top of that for however long it takes to subside. 

These days though I make starters so it's already liquid. They can be pitched at high krausen or left to ferment out. I do the latter in order to harvest yeast from them for next time, and also I don't really want two litres or more of shitty unhopped wort in my beer.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto

[pilotsh]

13 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I have a feeling my dry yeast I sprinkled on my first brew was sluggish because it was overwhelmed by the wort.

And the more I think about it I remember now the yeast I bought was a firm vacuum sealed sachet. The yeast that came in the large lager can kit is a loose sachet (not vacuum sealed). Maybe the yeast that came with the big kit, because it isn't vacuum sealed, can handle just being sprinkled straight onto the wort!

[Otto Von Blotto]

They're meant to be vacuum sealed. I doubt that makes any difference to how it should be treated. I know the theory behind dry pitching causing problems, but nobody has ever managed to get a definitive answer as to what percentage of cells die from it, to my knowledge anyway. 

There are other factors as well, primarily how it was stored prior to purchase. If it was subjected to high temperature that could have reduced its viability. 

[pilotsh]

Ok, I'll dry sprinkle and if I get another long fermentation I will rehydrate for brew 3.

[pilotsh]

BREAD! Well, I halved the trub and the first loaf didn't really rise, so I doubled the sugar, dissolved in water, and added with flour and re-kneaded it. Turned out to be a dense but very moist loaf. Tasted delicious!

You can see in one of the photos how the other half of the trub separated in four layers!

That's currently kneading the second loaf, but this time I dissolved the sugar in some water first, added it to only the trub first for 20 minutes until it started bubbling away! Looked much better! Aiming for a fluffier loaf to see the difference! 

Edited April 25, 2020 by pilotsh
photos

[Pezzza]

Looks good Cobber...

if you are into Italian style crispy bread with nice bouncy internal dynamics... check Jim Layey no-knead out... tis the Biz

There are plenty of sites... and Jim Lahey has a book "My Bread" which is really good...

Cheers mate and good luck with the brewing... looks like you have got your bread-ferment organised ; )

BB

Edited April 25, 2020 by Bearded Burbler

[pilotsh]

5 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Cheers mate and good luck with the brewing... looks like you have got your bread-ferment organised ; )

I don't know if it will last long enough to ferment!

Hot out of the oven we had two slices each with some butter already! Yum!

[pilotsh]

22 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

if you are into Italian style crispy bread with nice bouncy internal dynamics... check Jim Layey no-knead out... tis the Biz

Thanks for the info, I will look it up! For the first few brews I will just use my bread maker to knead the dough and rest it, and then cook it in the machine or throw it in the oven, to see how the beer yeast handles/behaves compared to my bread yeast. Then I'll get fancy!

Edited April 25, 2020 by pilotsh
typo

[Titan]

5 hours ago, pilotsh said:

Ok, I'll dry sprinkle and if I get another long fermentation I will rehydrate for brew 3.

Most manufacturers give both dry pitch and rehydrate instuctions on the data sheets. For me if it can be dry pitched then thats what i will do. Rehydration can add extra points of infection that dry pitching does not.

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

Most manufacturers give both dry pitch and rehydrate instuctions on the data sheets. For me if it can be dry pitched then thats what i will do. Rehydration can add extra points of infection that dry pitching does not.

If you're lazy with sanitising perhaps. Otherwise it's no more risk than any other part of the process. I boil the water in the jug it's being rehydrated in, cover it and wait for it to cool down before putting the yeast in. I rarely use dry yeast anymore but never had any infections from rehydrating it. 

[Titan]

17 hours ago, Journeyman said:

There's 2 types of starters. The viability starter and a vitality starter. 

 

I know what a vitality starter is and the theory behind its use. However research suggests that rehydration of yeast does not really increase its performance. So is the faffing around rehydrating or making a vitality starter necessary or worth the extra effort?

I have included a quote from an artical from BYO magazine which has a link to another artical from fermentis.

Straight from the manufacturers

As discussed, there is indeed quite a bit of documentation about the importance and benefits of rehydrating dry yeast. I figured I would reach out to a couple of the yeast manufacturers (Lallemand and Fermentis) to see if there are any more details here.

Lallemand (LalBrew)

Lallemand, who produces LalBrew (formerly called Danstar) dried yeast, state on their website that rehydration is recommended, but not essential. “Rehydration is a simple process which allows the dry yeast to become liquid yeast, reducing the osmotic stress and enhancing a homogeneous dispersion,” it says.

In discussion with Eric Abbott, Lallemand’s Technical Advisor, he further informed me that “the yeast cell membrane is more non-selectively permeable during the first few minutes of rehydration, so rehydrating in water instead of directly in the beer reduces the risk of absorbing toxins into the cell.”

That said, there have been improvements in dry yeast production at Lallemand so dried yeast is now more robust and resistant to stress than it previously was. Taking it a step further, the impacts of yeast rehydration can be strain dependent, however Lallemand is confident in recommending dry pitching for any of their stains.

“We do see some strain-specific differences in lag phase, attenuation, and flavor, but these differences are generally quite small and should not deter any brewer from trying dry pitching. In some cases dry pitching gives better performance and we now recommend dry pitching our New England and BRY-97 strains as recent lab trials have shown shorter lag phases as well as greater attenuation. These tests are ongoing as we test dry pitching in different types of wort (high gravity, sour, etc.).”

Eric added that Lallemand will provide strain-specific recommendations for a particular beer based on their most current research.

Fermentis

Just like Lallemand, Fermentis has conducted continual process improvement of their production of dry yeast. They recently conducted a scientific study in collaboration with the Institut Meurice and Odisee University to quantify the ability of their yeast strains to survive rehydration in a number of varying media and rehydration conditions. From discussion with José Pizarro of Fermentis, the results of these studies revealed some interesting facts. 

For one, Fermentis yeast strains are very tolerant of the temperature of rehydration. They studied rehydration temperatures of 46.4, 53.6, 60.8, 68, 89.6 and 104 °F (8, 12, 16, 20, 32, and 40 °C) and for a given yeast strain the viability performance was similar. They also studied rehydration with varying media of water (46.4 and 68 °F/8 and 20 °C) and wort of varying density (1.028, 1,061, and 1.106 also at 46.4/68 °F). Again, the viability performance was similar on a per strain basis. These results indicate that the Fermentis strains are very robust with the ability to have high viability when pitched under a variety of conditions. Just as was indicated by Lallemand, the exact performance varies depending on the strain.

The Fermentis, Institut Meurice & Odisee University team further studied the fermentation performance of all of their strains under varying pitch conditions in regards to time of fermentation, amount of volatile compounds produced (e.g., VDK, esters, higher alcohols, acetaldehyde), ethanol produced, and attenuation achieved. Once again, they achieved consistent performance across varying conditions (see chart below).

Based upon these results there is no significant difference in pitching Fermentis homebrewing strains directly vs. conducting a rehydration process. (A snapshot of the data from this study is available to read at https://fermentis.com/en/news-from-fermentis/technical-reviews/e2u-direct-pitching/ and the entire study is accessible upon request).

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

I know what a vitality starter is and the theory behind its use. However research suggests that rehydration of yeast does not really increase its performance. So is the faffing around rehydrating or making a vitality starter necessary or worth the extra effort?

I have included a quote from an artical from BYO magazine which has a link to another artical from fermentis.

I would point out the whole point of the article and the link in the article is to show dry yeast pitching "is as good as" rehydrating in water or wort. Also that saying there is "no significant difference" in the final product does not equate to "no difference" - and they do not say what the level of 'significance' might be.

It also mentions that they have worked to overcome the tendency of dry pitched yeast to absorb unwanted chemicals from the wort, something rehydrating clearly prevents or reduces.

Also my posts were done in a discussion of apparent low activity of the yeast along with a comment about some guy having his starter go over the top of the starter container.

My experience has been that the ONLY times my brews have taken circa 10 hours or more to 'kick off' has been when I did NOT make a starter or rehydrate. With making a starter to pitch I have high activity within 3 hours or less and I mean Kraussen of 5 - 6 cms or more in that time. With rehydrating it has been a little longer, maybe out to 5 hours for the similar result.

Dry pitching (both times) has been next morning finding a couple of cms head that builds up during the day to thick Kraussen.

And these were all done using Nottingham yeast bought within a week of the brew being made from the same supplier - in case that might be thought to make a difference.

21 hours ago, Titan said:

You can pitch it but the point of making a starter is to double or tripple cell count. Pitching early may not achieve the required amount

Here you describe only the viability starter process - I was not thinking you didn't know what a vitality starter is but rather that others may not and given their low activity brews, might like to try a vitality starter to improve their brewing. For me, vitality starters have worked very well, even when I was doing them before @ChristinaS1 thread about them, and even when I was just using raw sugar instead of LDME.

After the thread on SNS starters I did some more reading and found there is some suggestion that getting the yeast active and pitching rather than letting it complete its life cycle and go dormant was a better option so that is what I do. YMMV.

[kmar92]

JM, disregarding your observations of faster fermentation activity yeast starter/rehydration v dry pitching, have you noticed any difference in the finished product of yeast starter/rehydration v dry pitching? I would be interested to hear your observations.

[Journeyman]

40 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

JM, disregarding your observations of faster fermentation activity yeast starter/rehydration v dry pitching, have you noticed any difference in the finished product of yeast starter/rehydration v dry pitching? I would be interested to hear your observations.

It's hard to say. As I am new to all this (done 19 brews since Sept last year) there are not many I have repeated. And those I have, have usually been treated the same way - the old , "when  you're on a good thing, stick to it" adage. Or perhaps, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." It has been some time since I dry pitched and those were 'one-off' beers so comparing them would be a bit difficult.

But I haven't had any beers I would describe as poor, nor any where I can't recognise it as representing the beer I was trying for.

[Pezzza]

9 hours ago, Journeyman said:

I would point out the whole point of the article and the link in the article is to show dry yeast pitching "is as good as" rehydrating in water or wort. Also that saying there is "no significant difference" in the final product does not equate to "no difference" - and they do not say what the level of 'significance' might b

Mate JMan I think what @Titan is saying, is that the beauty of these current yeasts... and the current available malts as well... is that they are enormously forgiving...

I brewed KnK for like more than 30 years without ever rehydrating any yeast..... and everything was just fine.

My more recent Full Malt and then also All Grain were done with just a sprinkle of US0% or W34760 dry yeast.  And the result was gold - in bottle and in keg.

Without any personal Data I would be backing Fermentis' claim of performance meself as they do have some time and and research labs to determine these things.

 

 

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Mate JMan I think what @Titan is saying, is that the beauty of these current yeasts... and the current available malts as well... is that they are enormously forgiving...

Yes, I realise. I am just pointing out something many people miss when reading papers etc. and that is the WHY behind what they are doing. In this case it is clear they are attempting to show, (& likely proving but without the data it is hard to know) that dry pitching is as good as rehydrating and starters, which means the converse was true - dry pitching was NOT as good as the other 2 before this.

When I add that to my experience, the tiny inconvenience of rehydrating or starter pitch seems worth it for the immediate activity in my brews.  Again, YMMV.  

[Otto Von Blotto]

It does vary. I make starters and don't get immediate activity when they're pitched, but I don't pitch them at high krausen either. They always get going in under 24 hours though, which is fine. Fermentation still only takes 5-6 days.