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Pilsner and Wheat IPA/NEIPA?


Gerhard vdW

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Hey Everyone, 

 

I have a can (1.7kg) of hopped pilsner extract and another can of unhopped wheat malt extract which was earmarked for a wheat beer. Thing is, I just finished a batch of home brew wheat beer and I am quite fed up with the taste for now, so I was hoping for some alternatives. 

 

I was thinking if I could use these extracts to make an IPA or preferably a NEIPA. I would like to start incorporating mini mashing or even partial mashing into this recipe. I also have 100g each of Centennial, Amarillo and Simcoe hops. I know water chemistry is really important with the NEIPA style beers, but I don't have the equipment for that so I will have to skip that part. 

 

https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/k9-quencher-session-ale.html

 

I found this recipe on Coopers site which looks great already. What do you think if I add some flaked oats with the steep/mini mash and replace the yeast with some sort of London Ale yeast (any other suggestions would be appreciated)? I will also dry hop a lot more than the recipe suggest. Could that start to resemble a Neipa of some sort? 

 

As always, thank you guys for your input, I appreciate it

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2 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

you will only get starch unless you use a base grain that has some enzymes.

Sorry for asking, but I am quite a newb in this regard. Does the Caramel Hell and Caramel Rye grains not count as a base grain? Or will I have to add some 2 row or something in as well? 

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4 minutes ago, Gerhard vdW said:

Does the Caramel Hell and Caramel Rye grains not count as a base grain?

Nope, they have been kilned. All there are good for is sugar, they do not have any diastic power. You need a cereal mash for the oats.

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16 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

Nope, they have been kilned. All there are good for is sugar, they do not have any diastic power. You need a cereal mash for the oats.

Thanks for the advise, I have been reading about these things but I guess the best way to learn is in practice😅. Is there any specific amount of base malts to add if I wish to add oats as well? Would the base malts then replace my pilsner extract? 

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I can't offer any advice regarding mashing, but I will say that I used a hopped can (Coopers APA) with wheat malt extract to make a Pacific Ale. I bottled it on Monday and the haziness, colour and flavour were fantastic going into the bottles. Very excited to try it. I would have thought you'd want to add some bittering hops to that recipe in order to get the Pilsner can closer to an IPA. Also with NEIPA, I believe they dry hop at the tail end of primary fermentation, rather than waiting for primary to have finished.

Edit: after looking at that K9 recipe for a little longer I've added it to my list as my next Session Ale. Sounds bloody delicious and employs a couple of things (grain steep, hop boil) that I'm looking to start adding to repertoire.

Edited by Cassius
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11 hours ago, Gerhard vdW said:

Hey Everyone, 

 

I have a can (1.7kg) of hopped pilsner extract and another can of unhopped wheat malt extract which was earmarked for a wheat beer. Thing is, I just finished a batch of home brew wheat beer and I am quite fed up with the taste for now, so I was hoping for some alternatives. 

 

I was thinking if I could use these extracts to make an IPA or preferably a NEIPA. I would like to start incorporating mini mashing or even partial mashing into this recipe. I also have 100g each of Centennial, Amarillo and Simcoe hops. I know water chemistry is really important with the NEIPA style beers, but I don't have the equipment for that so I will have to skip that part. 

 

https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/k9-quencher-session-ale.html

 

I found this recipe on Coopers site which looks great already. What do you think if I add some flaked oats with the steep/mini mash and replace the yeast with some sort of London Ale yeast (any other suggestions would be appreciated)? I will also dry hop a lot more than the recipe suggest. Could that start to resemble a Neipa of some sort? 

 

As always, thank you guys for your input, I appreciate it

You are on the right track and should make a tasty beer.

The others have already touched on the cereal mash. But if you are just looking for head retention, then the wheat will provide that and the haze. Why not try it without the oats?

To me a NEIPA is more than just the oats it is the biotransformation, double dry hop, haziness and juicy character that hides a 6%+ ABV, an IPA but with lighter malts and little to no crystal malts, with a focus on tropical hops versus piney hops.

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38 minutes ago, Norris! said:

You are on the right track and should make a tasty beer.

The others have already touched on the cereal mash. But if you are just looking for head retention, then the wheat will provide that and the haze. Why not try it without the oats?

To me a NEIPA is more than just the oats it is the biotransformation, double dry hop, haziness and juicy character that hides a 6%+ ABV, an IPA but with lighter malts and little to no crystal malts, with a focus on tropical hops versus piney hops.

Thanks for the advice, I think I could just stick to this recipe then.  I will however do the double dry hop so that I get that nice aroma from it.

 

I previously made a coopers IPA and dry hopped with 50 gm of Motueka, 25 gm Cascade and 25 gm Centennial.  After bottling and letting it sit for a couple of weeks, it seems that the oxygen kind of destroyed the aroma.  Would it help if I squeeze the air out of the bottles before I put the cap on?

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Another thing I would like to ask regarding this recipe which I included above:  After you have steeped the grains and start the boil, do I have to wait for the hot break to pass before adding the hops?  Will there be a hot break since there are no base malts?  Also, how long should I boil the grains before adding the hops?

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2 hours ago, Gerhard vdW said:

Another thing I would like to ask regarding this recipe which I included above:  After you have steeped the grains and start the boil, do I have to wait for the hot break to pass before adding the hops?  Will there be a hot break since there are no base malts?  Also, how long should I boil the grains before adding the hops?

When you start the boil, ensure the grains are removed and filtered out of the wort. Then this is up to you, the recipe says to bring to a boil and add the Columbus hops, some people like to add the hops right when the boil begins to help with boil overs but I wait for the hot break.

2 hours ago, Gerhard vdW said:

Thanks for the advice, I think I could just stick to this recipe then.  I will however do the double dry hop so that I get that nice aroma from it.

 

I previously made a coopers IPA and dry hopped with 50 gm of Motueka, 25 gm Cascade and 25 gm Centennial.  After bottling and letting it sit for a couple of weeks, it seems that the oxygen kind of destroyed the aroma.  Would it help if I squeeze the air out of the bottles before I put the cap on?

The loss of aroma could of been from several things like malts used and yeast. Oxygen doesn't help either. Recipe construction? Who knows, but I am not a proponent of crushing things that will be under pressure later, leading to eventual cracks in the bottle and loss of beer.

If you are worried about oxygen then you will have a hard time combating it by bottling unless you went with a burst of co2 and then filled the bottle or something. But the secondary fermentation eats most oxygen and does affect the beers aroma and flavours.

I think that 50g of cascade and mosaic will be very apparent, mainly due to the high AA of the mosaic.

The way I look at it is, with 2 hops, one is 12AA and the other is 6AA, alpha acids, and you use the same amount, both beers will lose aroma, probably at the same rate, but due to more alpha acids being in the 1 50g batch of 12AA hops, it should have more detectable aroma over a longer time than the beer made with 6AA hops. Now this is simply me talking out my a$$ but it makes sense to me. But I think the main factors to hop fade is recipe construction, use of too many crystal malts and ingredients competing with the hops, excessive oxygen, yeast and hops used. Mainly age of hops and alpha acids. Now others have different views and have crushed their bottles, one of these people have later posted about mysterious bottle leaks in their PET bottles...weird how that happens. But if you are that worried, crush away, it is your brewery.

Cheers

Norris

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8 hours ago, Norris! said:

When you start the boil, ensure the grains are removed and filtered out of the wort. Then this is up to you, the recipe says to bring to a boil and add the Columbus hops, some people like to add the hops right when the boil begins to help with boil overs but I wait for the hot break.

The loss of aroma could of been from several things like malts used and yeast. Oxygen doesn't help either. Recipe construction? Who knows, but I am not a proponent of crushing things that will be under pressure later, leading to eventual cracks in the bottle and loss of beer.

If you are worried about oxygen then you will have a hard time combating it by bottling unless you went with a burst of co2 and then filled the bottle or something. But the secondary fermentation eats most oxygen and does affect the beers aroma and flavours.

I think that 50g of cascade and mosaic will be very apparent, mainly due to the high AA of the mosaic.

The way I look at it is, with 2 hops, one is 12AA and the other is 6AA, alpha acids, and you use the same amount, both beers will lose aroma, probably at the same rate, but due to more alpha acids being in the 1 50g batch of 12AA hops, it should have more detectable aroma over a longer time than the beer made with 6AA hops. Now this is simply me talking out my a$$ but it makes sense to me. But I think the main factors to hop fade is recipe construction, use of too many crystal malts and ingredients competing with the hops, excessive oxygen, yeast and hops used. Mainly age of hops and alpha acids. Now others have different views and have crushed their bottles, one of these people have later posted about mysterious bottle leaks in their PET bottles...weird how that happens. But if you are that worried, crush away, it is your brewery.

Cheers

Norris

Thank you for your detailed explanations Norris, I appreciate it. I recon I can do a trial run with 5 bottles where the air is squeezed out and compare it to the ones who aren't, that should give some sort of indication. 

 

I only have Centennial, Simcoe and Amarillo hops. Do you recon I could use Centennial as the bittering hop and then Simcoe and Amarillo to dry hop? Or would you suggest another combo? 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Everyone

I was thinking of eventually brewing this recipe below this weekend:

https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/k9-quencher-session-ale.html

 

I have never done a steep before, so I was hoping to get some advice on what temperature to steep the Cars Hell and Cara Rye grains in? 

Secondly, I do not have Columbus hops to do the bittering boil. I only have Centennial, Simcoe and Cascade. Which one do you suggest I add as the bittering hop? Would 25 grams be enough of any of those hops to get the same bittering effect or do you suggest adding a few grams more? 

Thanks for the advice

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Hi @Gerhard vdW

The steep can be done between say 70-80 degrees Celcius. 

Centennial or Simcoe would go well in this recipe. So would Cascade, but it is already in there as a dry hop.  That is not a great reason not to use it, you still could.

Centennial has lower alpha acids than Columbus so I would suggest 35g of Centennial for the 10 minute boil to get the same bitterness as the Columbus.

Simcoe is about the same as Columbus so use 25g for the 10 minute boil.

Edited by Shamus O'Sean
Corrected temp from 78 to 70
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4 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi @Gerhard vdW

The steep can be done between say 70-80 degrees Celcius. 

Centennial or Simcoe would go well in this recipe. So would Cascade, but it is already in there as a dry hop.  That is not a great reason not to use it, you still could.

Centennial has lower alpha acids than Columbus so I would suggest 35g of Centennial for the 10 minute boil to get the same bitterness as the Columbus.

Simcoe is about the same as Columbus so use 25g for the 10 minute boil.

Hi Shamus, thank you for the information, I will follow those instructions then. I hope this one comes out nice. 

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3 hours ago, Gerhard vdW said:

Hi Shamus, thank you for the information, I will follow those instructions then. I hope this one comes out nice. 

Hey @Gerhard vdW

I think I messed up the temperatures above.  It should be 60-70°C.  Aim to start close to 70°C.  Cover the pot and wrap it in a towel or blanket to keep the warmth in.  It should still be over 60°C after an hour.

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