Hop boil and bitterness

[Buko]

Hi all ,as a relative newbie and with no LHBS in town i depend on forums and the net for advice and product to brew. Recently made the Nelsons Light with the addition of 200gm malt and 300 gm brew sugar, it was nice but very bitter which led me to look at hopping on the net and came up with the suggestion that hops added to the boil will bitter even for ten minute additions ?? Here is the site and an extract from it .https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=2ahUKEwix_tu9k4rnAhXPWisKHWYVDksQFjAKegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.beer-simple.com%2Fbrewing%2F2017%2F11%2F6%2Fin-the-boil-theyre-all-bittering-hops&usg=AOvVaw0ZEaVZ4dEcrsrKtG0lyXH1

In the boil, it's just not productive to think in terms of "early-bitter, middle-flavor, late-aroma" hops.  In the boil, they're all bittering hops.

LOW AND SLOW

None of this matters for lots of recipes, because in a great many styles we don't actually want much more than the bittering out of our hops.  We want accents and hints of hops flavor, not pronounced impressions of it.  

in a more and more hops-forward world, though, I see people actively trying to make even traditional malt showcases with big hops aroma and flavor.  If you want to do that, that's great - but don't try to make new-fashioned beer the old-fashioned way.

If you want anything more than low or medium hops character, add those hops post-boil, pre-chill.

After the boil, let your beer sit until it drops under 170F, then go to town.  At those temps you're adding minimal bitterness, but extracting and preserving the oils (and flavors) you want.  Let them sit, too - longer is better, up to about 20 minutes.

Consider the "less is more," approach, too - when Sapporo played with this stuff and published their results, they found that a lower level of dissolved oils in some beers gave more flavor.  Weird.  

I usually use less than an ounce of anything added then, and then adjust in subsequent recipes.

Any feedback would be nice .

Cheers

[ben 10]

7 minutes ago, Buko said:

hops added to the boil will bitter even for ten minute additions ??

They will add some bitterness but less than if boiled for 60 minutes. There will also be more flavour from the 10 minute than the 60 but still some from the 60.+

EXAMPLE.

In a recent beer I made.

20 g of El dorado boiled for 60 minutes gives me 38.4 IBU
20 g of El dorado boiled for 10 minutes gives me 12.7 IBU

There is MUCH more flavour from the 10 than the 60 also there is still SOME from 10.

[Buko]

Thanks Ben , that article i posted seem to suggest that any hop in a boil will add to bitterness and tis better to ad post boil for flavour ?? You cleared things up a tad ! Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's true that hops boiled add bitterness but the amount of it depends on the time they're boiled for as well as the variety of hop, and weight of the additions. 

There are numerous factors at play which influence what the final outcome is. Wort composition, water chemistry, hop variety and other things all affect it much more than that article would suggest. It's not as simple as "boiled hops add bitterness and bugger all else". In terms of short boiled hops, that is flat out crap. I have at least one recipe where the latest addition is a 20 minute boil, and it usually has a noticeable fruity flavour from the hops. It doesn't dominate but it's more than a background flavour at the same time. The flavour from these additions also tends to stay in the beer longer as it ages, where dry hops and post boil additions fade quicker.

With those sorts of hoppy ales I usually do a combination of short boiled hops and post boil hops, along with a dry hop later after fermentation. There are 60 minute additions as well but these are mainly small amounts to top up the bitterness and give it a bit of bite; generally speaking short boiled hops don't provide as firm a bitterness as longer boiled hops do. You might have 30 IBUs from a 10 minute boil and the same amount from a 60 minute boil, and the 60 minute one will likely taste more bitter. 

[Marty_G]

4 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I usually do a combination of short boiled hops and post boil hops, along with a dry hop later after fermentation.

What about flame out additions. i read yesterday that they are best done when the wort is under 80⁰ , it was in F and i think that is the equivalent,  as more aroma and flavour is extracted. Do you ascribe to that?  

 

If I was using flowers rather than pellets should i increase the mass? 

Edited January 17, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[Otto Von Blotto]

Theoretically yes, but that presents a problem with cubing since the wort should ideally go in above 80. The closest I can get is cube hops, which form part of the post boil additions. 

[Marty_G]

19 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Theoretically yes,

Ok so I am chilling my wort so best praxctice would be: chill to below 80, stop the chill then add the FO hops and whirlpool for 20 minutes or so. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Ok so I am chilling my wort so best praxctice would be: chill to below 80, stop the chill then add the FO hops and whirlpool for 20 minutes or so. 

Depends what you're looking for from he additions. That technique is known as a hop stand, flameout means exactly that, they go in when the heat is killed. There's no reason you can't do both though, I use cube hops to kind of mimic that hopstand, the wort probably sits at about 83/84 degrees once fully transferred to the cube so not too far off. I also throw in some when I kill the heat. 

[Marty_G]

8 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That technique is known as a hop stand,

Thanks just read up on it. Will give it a bash with a Pale Ale I plan to do next.  Will cool to under 80⁰ and do an addition and let sit for 20 -30 minutes.  You really are a wealth of knowledge Kelsey. Thanks. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It should work well mate. I'd probably do it too if I had a chiller but I'm happy with my cubes at the moment. 

[Marty_G]

2 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'm happy with my cubes at the moment. 

I can see the advanntage of cubes for the time poor but  I have plenty of that. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah it certainly comes in handy. I did a brew day on Wednesday which I'm pitching tomorrow. Then I've gotta get my cubes all cleaned up properly for more brews. Gotta do my porter next I think, get it done so it can age for winter. 

[Lab Cat]

23 hours ago, Buko said:

Hi all ,as a relative newbie and with no LHBS in town i depend on forums and the net for advice and product to brew. Recently made the Nelsons Light with the addition of 200gm malt and 300 gm brew sugar, it was nice but very bitter

The Nelson's is a oddity in the Coopers recipe catalogue. It forgoes their kit tins and is purely a dry malt and hops brew. I can't see this recipe getting bitter by my palate, and I'm not a hop forward sort of bloke. Maybe the Centennial added a big whack. you could always drop this down to 15min

With the rest of the hops they've steeped/flameout and dry hopped on this recipe, no boiling - that should be very low on bitterness as these are methods that aim to extract max flavour from the hops. I do it a lot, and it works - depending on the hops used of course, which is another discussion.

How did you manage the grains on this? They've said to add the cracked grains at the end of the boil. Grains need to be steeped, strained... and then the liquid boiled. If you just add the cracked grain to a boil you can get a lot of harsh bitterness.

 

 

[Journeyman]

21 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yeah it certainly comes in handy. I did a brew day on Wednesday which I'm pitching tomorrow. Then I've gotta get my cubes all cleaned up properly for more brews. Gotta do my porter next I think, get it done so it can age for winter. 

Is there a reason why I couldn't just pour my wort into an FV and store it? I've seen comments about filling the cube - is it an oxygen thing that spoils the wort if it is let stand?

[Marty_G]

yep and the increased chance of infection.   

[Buko]

17 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

The Nelson's is a oddity in the Coopers recipe catalogue. It forgoes their kit tins and is purely a dry malt and hops brew. I can't see this recipe getting bitter by my palate, and I'm not a hop forward sort of bloke. Maybe the Centennial added a big whack. you could always drop this down to 15min

With the rest of the hops they've steeped/flameout and dry hopped on this recipe, no boiling - that should be very low on bitterness as these are methods that aim to extract max flavour from the hops. I do it a lot, and it works - depending on the hops used of course, which is another discussion.

How did you manage the grains on this? They've said to add the cracked grains at the end of the boil. Grains need to be steeped, strained... and then the liquid boiled. If you just add the cracked grain to a boil you can get a lot of harsh bitterness.

 

 

Actually , maybe it was because i added the cracked grains to the boiling wort for a minute before flame out, however that was per recipe . I would normally steep ,strain then boil the strained liquid . Any how i am giving the post boil 170f temp hops addition and steep a whirl to see if i can detect more flavour using the same recipe ,its in the fridge as i speak, hopefully i learn something here ??

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Is there a reason why I couldn't just pour my wort into an FV and store it? I've seen comments about filling the cube - is it an oxygen thing that spoils the wort if it is let stand?

If you pitch the following day you can probably get away with that, but cubes are often stored longer than that and if you did that with a fermenter, it would end up infected.