RDWHAHB - What Are You Drinking in 2020?

[Pezzza]

16 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Got to love the $1.60 a kilo bird feed.

Maybe that's where I have got it wrong all along Greeny - been hunting HBSs around Australia for Aussie's and the World's finest Malts...

And the answer was right there under me nose only 50km away at the Chook-n-Pet-n-Livestock Feed store?

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

28 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Maybe that's where I have got it wrong all along Greeny - been hunting HBSs around Australia for Aussie's and the World's finest Malts...

And the answer was right there under me nose only 50km away at the Chook-n-Pet-n-Livestock Feed store?

Yeah mate. Plenty of stuff to play around with there. Sorghum, millet, corn, unmalted barley. Saw hemp seed too.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Greeny1525229549

[The Captain!!]

1 hour ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Got to love the $1.60 a kilo bird feed.

Ha ha ha yeah mate got like 8kg for about $4.5

sensational

[Shamus O'Sean]

That's a bit like these:

In a whispering voice: Just don't tell them what you might use the cup hooks for

[Journeyman]

I've got 2 kegs in my fridge. One is an APA and a delight to drink. The other is my Draught Experiment which I tried last night.

Coopers Draught
Woolies Draught can (as cheap LME) 
900g LDME
200g brown sugar

No hops as it was an experiment to see what I could make with the basics. Will not be doing that again!

I have to say I have made my first unimpressive beer. It will likely be sinked as soon as what's in the brew fridge is done. Boring, flat and loses head early. The only thing going for it is, it is strong. Bit over 7 ABV - maybe I can add something to give it flavour - a shandy or go buy some Stones. 

Hey, does Coopers Stout use the Comm yeast? I could get a half doz and make black&tans. Or decant them into the keg and recondition it.  

I'm trying shortening the line - if I have that right it should give a bit more 'oomph' coming out the tap? Also kicked the psi up by a couple to 15 to see if it makes a difference.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Journeyman

[Otto Von Blotto]

Don't change the line length because of one crappy beer. The high ABV and probably higher FG wouldn't be helping it absorb gas. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

 

Hey, does Coopers Stout use the Comm yeast? I could get a half doz and make black&tans. Or decant them into the keg and recondition it.  

Yes the commercial stout has the commercial yeast the same as all there beers. Not a fan of the Commercial yeast in a stout for myself. Id rather S04 or a liquid stout yeast but it will do the job.

[Journeyman]

9 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Don't change the line length because of one crappy beer. The high ABV and probably higher FG wouldn't be helping it absorb gas. 

I didn't cut the line - I had a shorter piece left from earlier. So all good. Will see how it goes with the higher psi and maybe some time in the tank.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'd say more time will help carbonate it further. Not surprised that it's a boring beer though

[Journeyman]

48 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'd say more time will help carbonate it further. Not surprised that it's a boring beer though

I think I've gotten used to beers with flavours and aromas, both subtle and more pronounced. But might have been better if it hadn't gone flat so fast. 

[Norris!]

19 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

Ha ha ha yeah mate got like 8kg for about $4.5

sensational

Do you gelantise the wheat grain, do a cereal mash or just a normal mash? That is why I haven't really used it because I didn't want to do a cereal mash. I didn't do that, the 1 time I used it, I didn't notice anything but always wondered if I didn't get everything out of it that I could've.

[The Captain!!]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

Do you gelantise the wheat grain, do a cereal mash or just a normal mash? That is why I haven't really used it because I didn't want to do a cereal mash. I didn't do that, the 1 time I used it, I didn't notice anything but always wondered if I didn't get everything out of it that I could've.

The way I use it and what I use it for, I use it in a single infusion mash. At around 2-4% of the malt bill.  That 8kg will last me a few years

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

Do you gelantise the wheat grain, do a cereal mash or just a normal mash? That is why I haven't really used it because I didn't want to do a cereal mash. I didn't do that, the 1 time I used it, I didn't notice anything but always wondered if I didn't get everything out of it that I could've.

If you want to get sugars out of it yes you have to do a cereal mash. Not difficult but will add 40 mins or so to brewday.

[Shamus O'Sean]

51 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

If you want to get sugars out of it yes you have to do a cereal mash. Not difficult but will add 40 mins or so to brewday.

What is a cereal mash. I have heard the term but not what it is. What other grains should be treated this way?

[Beerlust]

9 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

...Not a fan of the Commercial yeast in a stout for myself. Id rather S04 or a liquid stout yeast but it will do the job.

Nothing wrong with that approach & thought process. As you well know Greeny, the CCA strain is a higher attenuating strain aimed at a crisper, drier finish. Fermentis S-04 is designed to leave more residual sweetness & body behind. How you wish the beer to end up really is a decision for the brewer to decide on. Slightly sweeter, or slightly drier.

Purely on an experimental basis, it would be interesting to taste the Coopers Stout recipe at the glass brewed with these two different strains & compare. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Pezzza]

Greeny @Greeny1525229549

will tell but I think Shamus @Shamus O'Sean it is like cooking rice or oats...  like we do so we can eat them... to break down the long chain carbohydrates into something which can be better utilised by our gut and system...

Here - the grains are cooked up to produce shorter chain carbs produced directly from cooking and also then to produce carbohydrates in solution that the enzymes from the other malted grains - will then be able to work on to then produce shorter chain fermentation products.

So for our gut.... Wheat - grind - ferment - bake - eat bread.  Rice - boil - eat boiled rice.... Oats squeeze flat and then cook as porridge... less use to us human beans if not cooked up - bit like a  'cereal mash' done before we can eat - as we do not have the festive four stomachs of cow plus their host of gut microbes or the amazing large intestine full of microbes that horse has... and we don't eat our ppppoo like rabbits do ha ha filllthy coprophages!

So if grain is not malted grain - has to be cooked/transformed by the cereal mash/cooking process for shorter chain sugars directly for the yeasts -- and to get into a stage that also the Malted Grain Enzymes can work on during the Mash.

So in the Grain through to Malt process....  there done for us by the Maltster... soak... baby plant the coleoptile produces enzymes... then toast off so no more baby plant eating up the metabolites... then we mill/crush to make greater surface area to then stew the beautiful baby plant produced enzymes with the grain's long chain sugars (the baby plant's energy reserves held in the seed)... converting during the Mash process the once-long-chain complex carbs into fermentable shorter chain sugars for our friend US05 Woohooo!

Unless of course you are using Crystal Malts... where it has been mashed in the grain by the Maltster think at similar temps to what we do like in the 60s... and done in the grain itself...  so you can get away with a steep from Crystal Malts rather than the mash that needs the right temp and hold for the enzymes to kick/cut/split the long chain sugars into their small components for our yeasty boys.... as Crystal the sugars are already in shorter chains.

 

The beauty of this simple natural system.  Never fails to amaze me. Ha ha.  Simple but quite complex at the same time ; )

Cheers mate and let's see what @Greeny1525229549 is able to tell - who has done the practical side of a cereal mash before....

Hopefully I am not going up a dry gully here hey ; )

Edited May 6, 2020 by Bearded Burbler

[Pezzza]

22 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Yeah mate. Plenty of stuff to play around with there. Sorghum, millet, corn, unmalted barley. Saw hemp seed too.

Ha ha but I reckon there are some great results to be had from high quality malted grains that Australia and the World's best Maltsters produce too meself haha ; )

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

39 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

What is a cereal mash. I have heard the term but not what it is. What other grains should be treated this way?

Hey shamus. Basically a cereal mash is what you need to do to extract sugars from unmalted grains. Unmalted wheat, barley, rice, oats etc. You essentially need to gelatanise the grains to extract the sugars. 

This is what i read when i started to do it with plain rice a few years ago. Its quite easy to do but as i have said will add 40 mins or so to a brew day. 

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/09/06/cereal-mash-steps-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

You can buy most unmalted grains in flaked or torrified form which means you dont need to do a cereal mash but what fun would that be.

[Beerlust]

1 minute ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Hey shamus. Basically a cereal mash is what you need to do to extract sugars from unmalted grains. Unmalted wheat, barley, rice, oats etc. You essentially need to gelatanise the grains to extract the sugars.

Just on that, it pays to have a high potential/conversion grain amongst your grist to accompany this process with protein/gluten rests. 

Without suitable available enzymes from high potential base malts for conversion, you can end up with a lot of haze due to unconverted starches being leftover post mash. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

6 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Nothing wrong with that approach & thought process. As you well know Greeny, the CCA strain is a higher attenuating strain aimed at a crisper, drier finish. Fermentis S-04 is designed to leave more residual sweetness & body behind. How you wish the beer to end up really is a decision for the brewer to decide on. Slightly sweeter, or slightly drier.

Purely on an experimental basis, it would be interesting to taste the Coopers Stout recipe at the glass brewed with these two different strains & compare. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

Yep. Totally agree lusty. All up to individual taste buds. 

I think the higher roasted barley content in a stout combined with the more residual sugar works better for me. I have wondered how CCA does in a porter though with the lower roasted barley and more chocolate/crystal malt content. Might be an experiment i think.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

5 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Just on that, it pays to have a high potential/conversion grain amongst your grist to accompany this process with protein/gluten rests. 

Without suitable available enzymes from high potential base malts for conversion, you can end up with a lot of haze due to unconverted starches being leftover post mash. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

Spot on. And must i say a longer mash and boil if you want a clear beer. I think you put me onto that lusty when i couldnt get my asian lagers clear despite my best efforts. It certainly did the trick.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Greeny1525229549

[Beerlust]

5 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

...And must i say a longer mash and boil if you want a clear beer. I think you put me onto that lusty when i couldnt get my asian lagers clear despite my best efforts. It certainly did the trick.

I can't take any credit for that. PB2 was the last bloke I can remember speaking about this on the forum (sorry if I missed any posts since). I still remember his post. He took the p|$$ out of himself for doing a 90min mash on a porter or stout recipe where clarity really doesn't matter as you can't see through the beer. LOL

In lighter malted beers though to improve overall clarity, yes it is beneficial.

I was lucky enough to be a member of the touring group at the Brewery for PB2's last official outing for Coopers (AFAIK). He was a terrific mentor to many over probably two or more decades of home brewers helping with all their brewing problems & questions, & was a driving force behind the development & success of the Coopers home brew kits & recipes that can be brewed with them. 

I hope he's enjoying his retirement. (Insert High Five)

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

This is what i read when i started to do it with plain rice a few years ago. Its quite easy to do but as i have said will add 40 mins or so to a brew day. 

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/09/06/cereal-mash-steps-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

You can buy most unmalted grains in flaked or torrified form which means you dont need to do a cereal mash but what fun would that be.

Great little article.  I was beginning to worry about my recent Irish (Mexican) Stout where I used 20% Flaked Barley and 3% Torrified Wheat.  Clearly you do not have to do a cereal mash with these because they are already gelatinised.  Phew!

[Pezzza]

10 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Great little article.  I was beginning to worry about my recent Irish (Mexican) Stout where I used 20% Flaked Barley and 3% Torrified Wheat.  Clearly you do not have to do a cereal mash with these because they are already gelatinised.  Phew!

Shamus is the Flaked Barley already 'treated' i.e. gelatinised.... as opposed to rolled oats which have just been squished and we still have to cook/treat/cereal mash.... ?

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Shamus is the Flaked Barley already 'treated' i.e. gelatinised.... as opposed to rolled oats which have just been squished and we still have to cook/treat/cereal mash.... ?

Hey BB, The article says that Flaked Barley, that looks a lot like rolled oats, does not need a cereal mash.  The article only mentions raw oats as needing a cereal mash and quick oats as not needing a cereal mash.  I do not think that raw oats means rolled oats.  So I am unsure about your question.  I have read folks comment on the Forum that rolled oats need to be cooked/gelatinised to release their starches so that malted grains can convert them to sugars.

All of those flaked or torrified grains still need to go through the main mash for that conversion.