What's in Your Fermenter? 2020

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

If it works for you Jman then keep going. The googling i did a few years ago put me off using sugar as the sole source of food for a starter. I try to mimic the wort that it is going into. I.e if the wort contains 10% invert sugar i will throw some sugar in the starter. 

I have also taken to using a different method for ales which is making a starter out of the finished wort. Before i cube it i decant my calculated litres into the flask. Boil it on the stove for a couple of mins and then cool it down. Pitch my yeast and into the ferm fridge. Its at full yeast count in 24-36 hours. Pour the cube into the fermenter and pour the full starter in after it. Takes off in a couple of hours everytime and most importantly. No taste difference to the cool the starter, decant the spent ldme and then pitch method. And i haven't spent a cent on LDME either.

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

I note also he doesn't compare like with like - the major expense in the YPD Media column is the peptone, presumably a nutrient base and for the LDME side he doesn't even factor in the yeast cost.

This is a false comparison and it should be something like, 10g yeast - $2.65 + 100g dex - $2.20 versus 10g yeast - $2.65 + 106g DME - $1.95. i.e. $4.85 vs $4.60 instead of the $9.29/L and $2.01/L he claims.

I was thinking on this and realised I was buying into an assumption - he has 10g dex for $0.22 and I presumed his figures were right but that amount at that cost is $22.20 per kg for dex - surely that can't be correct. So maybe he's paying $2.20 per kg for dex and the 10g is meant to be 100g? So the comparison would still be invalid due to the peptone inclusion and leaving out the yeast altogether on the LDME side, but not as badly perhaps.

So it would be $2.85 (yeast plus 100g dex) versus $4.85. (yeast plus LDME) 

I still think he's suss - leaving the yeast out and adding peptone with zero explanation of why it would be needed when he says he's comparing sugar to LDME for cost.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Journeyman

[Journeyman]

37 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

If it works for you Jman then keep going. The googling i did a few years ago put me off using sugar as the sole source of food for a starter. I try to mimic the wort that it is going into. I.e if the wort contains 10% invert sugar i will throw some sugar in the starter. 

I have also taken to using a different method for ales which is making a starter out of the finished wort. Before i cube it i decant my calculated litres into the flask. Boil it on the stove for a couple of mins and then cool it down. Pitch my yeast and into the ferm fridge. Its at full yeast count in 24-36 hours. Pour the cube into the fermenter and pour the full starter in after it. Takes off in a couple of hours everytime and most importantly. No taste difference to the cool the starter, decant the spent ldme and then pitch method. And i haven't spent a cent on LDME either.

So you are not re-using the yeast but making it fresh every time? Do you cool the starter wort specifically or just let it come to room temp? Or do you cool it in the fridge? Does the possible issues in a slow cool of the wort for the starter, like those for the full sized wort, matter? e.g. increased haze perhaps? What I am wondering is, the cause of haze in a slowly cooling wort might be 'contagious' in some way and transfer to the general wort when you pitch. 

Or does it not matter due to the amounts in use?

Is the yeast still active at 24 - 36 hours or has it completed and gone inactive?

Do you leave the cube till the 24 - 36 hours are up then pitch?

It sounds like you're doing a viability starter using the actual wort instead of a different medium; I kinda like the reasoning and evidence I saw that a vitality starter is less stress on the yeast, which is why I started doing that instead of waiting for the start to stop activity.

[NicolasW]

8 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

He also gives as the only reason in the lab for using LDME is cost. Surely if the problems listed above are an issue he would also give those as a reason they use LDME in the lab? I note also he doesn't compare like with like - the major expense in the YPD Media column is the peptone, presumably a nutrient base and for the LDME side he doesn't even factor in the yeast cost.

He doesn't include yeast in either actually - its yeast extract. The point is that malt extract already contains the nutrients (from what I've read the only mineral missing is zinc) needed for healthy yeast growth. You need peptone (amino acids, peptides and proteins), yeast extract to bring dextrose up to parity with malt extract (whether it be DME, Liquid extract, or wort). I tend to trust his advice on this because he has a background in microbiology and has fairly technical channel that discusses yeast management.

Further to this the two main wet yeast producers recommend making starters from malt extract:

https://www.whitelabs.com/resources/homebrew-starter-tips

https://wyeastlab.com/making-starter

I know that both White Labs and Imperial Yeast (their claim is that they have enough yeast so no starter instructions) grow their yeast in wort. I think if it made sense to grow yeast on sugar they would.

At the end of the day you need to make the call on what methods you use. If your happy with how they work then go ahead. It will probably work fine for moderate gravity beers as the growth will occur when you pitch the yeast.

 

[Journeyman]

21 minutes ago, NicolasW said:

He doesn't include yeast in either actually - its yeast extract

So yeast extract is not the yeast itself? I presumed it was just a terminology thing.

The sugar starter has certainly worked well on high SG beers - 1.080+ beers have been among recent ones I have made.

But you have convinced me to give it a try, side by side brews.  One sugar-based starter and 1 LDME-based starter.

[NicolasW]

14 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

So yeast extract is not the yeast itself? I presumed it was just a terminology thing.

I believe its probably deactivated or cooked yeast. 

You could add in a direct pitch no starter. This would give you a baseline if using a starter even matters. I think it would be highly strain dependant as to what impact you get.  Like people I think some will do ok in bad situations, and others will struggle. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes if you're pitching it while it's still actively fermenting then it will likely take off quicker than yeast that has been allowed to go dormant for a few days. There's nothing wrong with doing it that way. It's probably a bit better than the chill and decant method because the yeast don't have to wake up again, hence it taking off quicker. It takes off quicker if you tip a batch onto an entire yeast cake as well but it's a massive overpitch that only really works well with lagers. However in this instance the speed is due to there being a ton of yeast there so it doesn't really have to multiply. 

The main reason I don't do it that way is because the starter is unhopped and fermented at whatever temperature it is in the kitchen at the time which is usually somewhat higher than my batches are done. I don't account for this portion of unhopped beer in my recipes, and with lagers especially I don't want 3 litres of beer that likely tastes garbage from being fermented 15 degrees warmer being mixed in with the batch. 

[NicolasW]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yes if you're pitching it while it's still actively fermenting then it will likely take off quicker than yeast that has been allowed to go dormant for a few days. There's nothing wrong with doing it that way. It's probably a bit better than the chill and decant method because the yeast don't have to wake up again, hence it taking off quicker.

Interestingly I recently watched a talk give by Chris White. He said you should probably wait until the yeast hit stationary phase. I believe he said it allows the yeast time to build up their glycogen reserves. It was an older talk so no sure how accurate it is.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

5 hours ago, Journeyman said:

So you are not re-using the yeast but making it fresh every time? Do you cool the starter wort specifically or just let it come to room temp? Or do you cool it in the fridge? Does the possible issues in a slow cool of the wort for the starter, like those for the full sized wort, matter? e.g. increased haze perhaps? What I am wondering is, the cause of haze in a slowly cooling wort might be 'contagious' in some way and transfer to the general wort when you pitch. 

Or does it not matter due to the amounts in use?

Is the yeast still active at 24 - 36 hours or has it completed and gone inactive?

Do you leave the cube till the 24 - 36 hours are up then pitch?

It sounds like you're doing a viability starter using the actual wort instead of a different medium; I kinda like the reasoning and evidence I saw that a vitality starter is less stress on the yeast, which is why I started doing that instead of waiting for the start to stop activity.

I've used fresh yeast and decanted slurry as well. I cool the starter in the sink with a couple of frozen coke bottles full of water. The yeast is still active when I pitch but it ain't going to grow anymore. From my googling the yeast cells are at there maximum after 24-36 hours but are still active consuming the sugars. I let the cube cool and put it in the fridge to get it to my pitch temp. Then I pitch it all. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

2 hours ago, NicolasW said:

Interestingly I recently watched a talk give by Chris White. He said you should probably wait until the yeast hit stationary phase. I believe he said it allows the yeast time to build up their glycogen reserves. It was an older talk so no sure how accurate it is.

Yeah stationery is the top of the growth curve but not letting it ferment completely out. If you wait till then cells have died.

[Pezzza]

14 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Some of the stuff on his site is outdated now. 

Ta Kelsey

Is in a Book (they still exist) with pages you can turn with your fingers and read during the day when the power goes out and the internet shittttts itself meh ; )

Latest edition...

 

Even tho the website stuff is early ed and old - there is still very good inf for new up-n-coming brewers with loadsa good background...

 

 

 

[Pezzza]

4 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

but it's a massive overpitch that only really works well with lagers

Ha ha great call Kelsey - had a quick chat to @Greeny1525229549 Greeny a while back and did that very thing on some W34/70 slurry... the AG Wort had a massive crank on it - and the resultant Munich Lager was I think prolly the best I had made to that stage... was pure GOLD haha! 

But not for every situation no doubt.

This was after Easter in iso and the only bad thing about it was that it ran out way toooooo fast

[Journeyman]

17 hours ago, NicolasW said:

Interestingly I recently watched a talk give by Chris White. He said you should probably wait until the yeast hit stationary phase. I believe he said it allows the yeast time to build up their glycogen reserves. It was an older talk so no sure how accurate it is.

How do you know when it is stationary phase? Is that when it has consumed the Kraussen?

[Clinto73]

On 6/17/2020 at 11:40 AM, Waynealford said:

Hop and Grain's recipe, 3L apple juice, 850ml pear juice, 1 cup earl grey tea.  Tossing up whether to use the lactose or not, planning on using Nottingham yeast.  Interesting to not the need to back sweeten, that might mean the lactose is a good idea.....

This is probably a completely underwhelming recipe for experienced brew heads on here.. 

But purchased the Brigalow Apple Cider Kit (purely on the basis my wife is from a little qld town called Brigalow) since heard this cider kit is very average so aimed to amp it up 

Boiled up 2 cinnamon sticks, 4 cloves , 20 ml vanilla extract for 30mins with 2litres of water and 400g BE3 and 300g Dextrose.

Added another 400g raw sugar into the FV. Pitched S-04 yeast with kit yeast and nutrient and sitting at a steady 22C two days in.

Not much activity of note but bubbling away.

 

 

[Clinto73]

Also added 2L of Nudie Cloudy Apple Juice so here's hoping it's OK

 

[Waynealford]

4 minutes ago, Clinto73 said:

This is probably a completely underwhelming recipe for experienced brew heads on here.. 

Wow.  Not everything has to be mega-complicated, this is my first attempt at a cider after 18 brews, so thought I would share "what's in your fermenter".  Interesting to see how it turns out in a 5L batch before committing to something larger or more fancy.

[Clinto73]

2 hours ago, Waynealford said:

Wow.  Not everything has to be mega-complicated, this is my first attempt at a cider after 18 brews, so thought I would share "what's in your fermenter".  Interesting to see how it turns out in a 5L batch before committing to something larger or more fancy.

Yeah, fair point.

This is my 1st cider attempt also.

I probably read one to many bad reviews on Brigalow Cider,   but i looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

Cheers

Clint

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

2 hours ago, Clinto73 said:

my wife is from a little qld town called Brigalow

Rolled through there plenty of times! 

[Norris!]

4 hours ago, Clinto73 said:

This is probably a completely underwhelming recipe for experienced brew heads on here.. 

But purchased the Brigalow Apple Cider Kit (purely on the basis my wife is from a little qld town called Brigalow) since heard this cider kit is very average so aimed to amp it up 

Boiled up 2 cinnamon sticks, 4 cloves , 20 ml vanilla extract for 30mins with 2litres of water and 400g BE3 and 300g Dextrose.

Added another 400g raw sugar into the FV. Pitched S-04 yeast with kit yeast and nutrient and sitting at a steady 22C two days in.

Not much activity of note but bubbling away.

 

 

It sounds pretty nice. I would give you a 5/5 for pimping that kit out, if it turns out good, if not 3/5, you did your best and got the most out of it, like a good pimp would.

[not so newb now]

Hey guys,

 

been a while between brews, but back putting a few down atm.

 

on the cider topic I’m going to throw one in shortly, done a few really nice ones before and dry hopped with cascade which was amazing.

my question is what do you think of Nelson sauvin as a dry hop addition for a cider?

i have about 50-60g in the freezer from the last brew and think it could be a nice addition and save me from having to head out for cascade......

[JoeB7]

Wasn't aware that one hopped cider 

[Clinto73]

6 hours ago, NewBrews said:

Rolled through there plenty of times! 

Nice to hear that !

Hard, flat country but really beautiful as well.

 

[Norris!]

You can dry hop cider, it brings another complexity to the table and some aromas that you couldn't get without them. It depends on taste. If you liked what you got from the cascade the NS could bring some good aromas and flavours to the cider with the grape and white wine like whatever aromas.

 

[Clinto73]

13 hours ago, Norris! said:

It sounds pretty nice. I would give you a 5/5 for pimping that kit out, if it turns out good, if not 3/5, you did your best and got the most out of it, like a good pimp would.

Many Thanks Norris for the encouragement man !

You know got me thinking to dry hop some cascade in my cider in a few days..

Cheers

Clint 

[Titan]

Pilsner i did last Monday holiday is about done and will be CC. FG of my bench sample is 1.017, had hoped it would have gone 2 points lower. Sample has been on the bench for 5 days and has cleared up nicely.