Yeast use questions

[Journeyman]

I've been thinking, a dangerous habit...

My first brew, (Coopers Real Ale with BE3) is quite drinkable but all the bottles are low on carb and retention. 

One possible is I was filling till 2-3 cm from the top THEN removing the bottle wand and I've read since I should have filled to the top then remove the wand to get the ideal head space. So it's likely some of the CO2 has entered air space instead of staying in the beer.

But, I was thinking about yeast. Often I see comments about the amount of yeast used and usually it is to add more or to "use at least..." - can there be too much yeast used? Would (say) 22 g yeast cause problems or would there simply be unutilised yeast at the end of the ferment? Could I add an extra packet (5.5g) to make 16.5g total to get better CO2 production?

Would it increase the amount of fermentables processed also or are they pretty much at completion when FG is reached anyway? I have seen a number of comments from guys whose brew hasn't gotten down to the expected FG and I wondered if maybe there wasn't enough yeast?

Also, (given the under-carb) I learned along the way that bread yeast might be used to brew BUT that it is bred for different results - bread yeast goes heavy on the CO2 and less so on alcohol. What might be the results of doing a brew with (say) 11g of Nottingham and 5.5g of bread yeast? Would that boost the CO2 production in the beer so that perhaps the sugar priming isn't needed?

Is it worth trying out? I have several hundred gms of baking yeast in the fridge that, at present, is slated for nutrient use. Could there be bad effects from trying some of it as an additional to the beer yeast? Note that bread yeast ferments at a higher temp so in a brew it is likely to be less active than the beer yeast.

[Beerlust]

42 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

My first brew, (Coopers Real Ale with BE3) is quite drinkable but all the bottles are low on carb and retention. 

How long has the beer been in the bottle?

What is the ambient temperature where you currently have the beer bottles stored?

[Journeyman]

About 3 weeks in bottle. Ambient has been roughly 18° for that period. Couple of warmer days but the garage doesn't vary much. Bottles are solid but if I try I can get a little thumb press. i.e MUCH more solid than just after bottling or even a couple of days after bottling.

[ben 10]

How much priming sugar was used?

[Journeyman]

2 carb drops per PET & 1 ea for the 6 stubbies.

[ben 10]

I would not use extra yeast, bread yeast or anything like that.
Are the lids tight enough? Headspace should not be an issue but may be??

 

[Journeyman]

Lids take effort to open so I don't think that's a problem.

Note I wasn't thinking about extra yeast in the bottled brew - that's a done & dusted.

It is more a general curiosity and wondering if extra/bread yeast might be a possibility INSTEAD of priming or as additional.

[Otto Von Blotto]

The amount of yeast used depends on the OG and volume of the batch, it's nothing to do with CO2 production. It'd be pretty hard to not have enough in the bottles for carbonation.

There is such a thing as using too much yeast but all that usually does is make the beer more bland than it should be, since the yeast reproduction phase does introduce flavours as well. 

[Marty_G]

To answer your question on the yeast and fermentables.    The limiting factor on the production of alcohol and CO2 is not yeast it is sugars.    This will give you an idea on what happens when yeast is pitched.     https://byo.com/article/fermentation-time-line/   

In the context of secondary carbonation, once again sugar is the limiting factor, but with PET bottles there can be issues with the sealing and the porosity of the bottles.  If you want better head retention use 1kg LDM, ditch the dex,  and high quality beer glasses like headmatser or better. Also the longer that it is bottle conditioned the better the head retention will be.   There is an equilibrium with the number of bottles needed and the speed that you drink it. You need to try to get it that the brew is closer to 3 months old that 1 month.  When I was using bottles i had over 300 tallies and 300 stubbies. I ended up with way to much stock so in the end I sold the tallies and had the 300 stubbs and was drinking beer about 4-6 months old. 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Marty_G]

Now in the context of amount pitched. Generally under pitching an Ale is fine as the flavours that are generated during the lag phase compliment the ale but under pitching a lager is fraught with danger due to the low ferment temps. The lag phase will be longer and the flavours made are not complimentary to the crisp flavour profile that is desired in lagers.  In lagers it is better to over pitch and do it at the ferment temp.   My next lager, after dissolving the wort and LDM, will be made with 20 lt of water that has been pre-cooled to 10^O  and an over pitch of high quality lager yeast.  

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

54 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Now in the context of amount pitched. Generally under pitching an Ale is fine as the flavours that are generated during the lag phase compliment the ale but under pitching a lager is fraught with danger due to the low ferment temps. The lag phase will be longer and the flavours made are not complimentary to the crisp flavour profile that is desired in lagers.  In lagers it is better to over pitch and do it at the ferment temp.   My next lager, after dissolving the wort and LDM, will be made with 20 lt of water that has been pre-cooled to 10^O  and an over pitch of high quality lager yeast.  

Depends on the degree Marty. And the yeast as well. A gross underpitch of an ale leads to possibly a stall or very long ferment with a crapload of unwanted flavours. A slight underpitch of some yeasts will give a rubbish result as well. CCA comes to mind. Sometimes it is warranted especially with Wheats and Belgians but even then you dont want to go too far. Its why Im always doing precise ale pitches and not using slurry anymore. 

100% on board with your lager comments. Pitch all the yeast you have.

[BlackSands]

3 hours ago, Journeyman said:

....all the bottles are low on carb and retention. 

One possible is I was filling till 2-3 cm from the top THEN removing the bottle wand and I've read since I should have filled to the top then remove the wand to get the ideal head space. So it's likely some of the CO2 has entered air space instead of staying in the beer.

This might be be issue....      I recently took to squeezing my PET bottles a little to exhale all the air from the headspace before capping.  It didn't occur to me the first time I did this that I would actually need to compensate with additional priming sugar to account for the extra CO2 that would now be needed to refill the headspace.  That batch is subsequently under-carb'd as a result.  Fortunately it was an English bitter so being a little flat is totally consistent with the style!      In your case though, while you perhaps have an excess of headspace in the bottles, it is actually already full of air so not sure how that would work out...    

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

There is an equilibrium with the number of bottles needed and the speed that you drink it. You need to try to get it that the brew is closer to 3 months old that 1 month.  When I was using bottles i had over 300 tallies and 300 stubbies. I ended up with way to much stock so in the end I sold the tallies and had the 300 stubbs and was drinking beer about 4-6 months old. 

The people I got most of my gear from had beers from 2013 in her cupboard - she was making the point that, done right, the beer lasts. My thought was... no wonder she's selling her gear - that cupboard is FULL and she probably has enough for the next 5 years or more in there.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Journeyman

[Journeyman]

The new batch looks in better shape so far - SG still coming down but it's come down from 1.072 to abut 1.014 so far and I took as new sample (because I somehow knocked over the one I had in the fridge with the FV and had to replace it) and the sample actually had a decent amount of head on it, even though I was gentle in the pour. Enough head I had to wait a while for it to subside so I could get a read. 

Tastes more like a beer than the previous brew samples did as well. Bit of a bitter back taste to it as well.

I hast the hopes for this one...

[Marty_G]

5 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

The people I got most of my gear from had beers from 2013 in her cupboard

Bottle condition is like conditioning wine. It get to a stage where no more improvement is available and then it starts to decay. I would say that the 2013 beer while OK would have been in its prime years earlier. Also I hope they are glass bottles.  If you want to age condition some dark ales or a stout use 100% use glass the PET are for short turn arounds. 

[Journeyman]

Yes, they were glass. And I understand about the longevity of pets.

 

[Marty_G]

18 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

1.072 to abut 1.014

Wow that is rocket fuel my calc it is about 8% after carbonation and that is if it is finished. 

[Journeyman]

The SS reckons should be about 8.7% in the bottle.

Isha mewwy chrishmash everyones...

 

[ben 10]

3 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Wow that is rocket fuel my calc it is about 8%

Session Ale

[Journeyman]

17 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

Session Ale

You spelt 'sheshun' wrong.  

Edited November 13, 2019 by Journeyman

[Otto Von Blotto]

Different beers have different optimal conditioning times, I find it better to work out what's best for each one rather than just apply a blanket 3 months for everything. Hoppy ales aren't as good at 3 months as they are at 1 for instance.

Another thing that aids head retention is late and dry hops. Of all the beers I brew, the ones that consistently have the best head retention are the hoppy pale ales. The others are still alright, but not as good as the pale ales.