bottle to keg

[Buko]

Hi all, first time poster and i am seeking some advice. Been dabbling with Coopers kits and extract brewing for a while and have had some good results . However i was told by some friends the brew would taste better if kegged?  And to buy a kegorator , do you guys think the investment is worth it as later i plan to purchase a Guten brewer and go all grain however ill stick with extract and kit n kilo just now . Any suggestions would be appreciated as i have been looking at some great input this forum,s members have had to offer.

Cheers Mel

[Aussiekraut]

I think this may be a bit of an overstatement. Bad beer will taste bad, regardless of where it is poured from and good beer will be good, regardless.

There will be less sediment in the keg if it is force carbonated, as the bottle conditioning creates more sediment. This will probably cause a "cleaner" taste but pouring slowly and carefully can achieve the same as most sediment is left behind in the bottle. It also means less flatulence  

 

[Beer Baron]

54 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

I think this may be a bit of an overstatement. Bad beer will taste bad, regardless of where it is poured from and good beer will be good, regardless.

There will be less sediment in the keg if it is force carbonated, as the bottle conditioning creates more sediment. This will probably cause a "cleaner" taste but pouring slowly and carefully can achieve the same as most sediment is left behind in the bottle. It also means less flatulence  

 

I agree with everything above except for the flatulence. I always fart excessively no matter what I eat and drink

[Beerlust]

Hi Buko & welcome to the forum.

3 hours ago, Buko said:

Hi all, first time poster and i am seeking some advice. Been dabbling with Coopers kits and extract brewing for a while and have had some good results . However i was told by some friends the brew would taste better if kegged?

In a keg just like a bottle the sediment drops out to the bottom. The pick-up tube in the keg is down very low near the bottom & generally draws up most of the sediment in the first few pours & then the beer pours clearer from there on. With bottles, just allow to refrigerate for a few days to allow the sediment to compact at the bottom & pour slowly into a glass until the last little bit, to leave the sediment behind in the bottle.

The main reason I switched to kegging is the time it saved me on preparing & filling individual bottles.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[Norris!]

I do think secondary fermentation does affect the flavour of the beer, but as said by Aussiekraut, a bad beer will taste bad regardless, trust me. I don't have a preference or care when drinking someone else's, but if I am packaging it, I prefer to keg for the convienence, like Lusty said.

Cheers

Norris

[Buko]

Thanks for the replies guys, i think too the ease of kegging is a great advantage anyway, hey have to say i brewed the lager Lusty posted years ago while looking at older threads here and it was superb! Great work,no one picked it  for a home brew and it tasted awesome.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I moved to kegs four years ago, mainly for the same reasons as Lusty, and it's true, it is a lot easier filling one big container instead of many small ones. The cleaning is a lot quicker and easier too. Glad I made the switch. 

I don't find that the beer tastes better from kegs full stop, more that it tastes better quicker. It conditions faster in kegs, e.g. in bottles it might take a beer 5-6 weeks to hit its peak but in a keg it might only take two weeks. 

[Beerlust]

4 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

There will be less sediment in the keg if it is force carbonated, as the bottle conditioning creates more sediment. 

Hi Aussiekraut. This is actually incorrect MOST of the time. The only way you can create more sediment naturally carbonating a beer is to use a source that is NOT 100% fermentable.

Most home brewers use sugar or dextrose to secondary ferment (carbonate) their beer. These sources are 100% fermentable by the yeast thus leave no residual body or added sediment behind as part of that secondary fermentation process.

If you were to use malt extract or something like golden syrup/molasses as the sugar source (and numerous others) to secondary ferment (carbonate) your beer, then yes there will be residual carryover of unfermentable material as part of their make-up that will leave small amounts of added sediment behind.

If you are using sugar or dextrose to secondary ferment your beer & still experiencing excessive amounts of sediment, then that is related to your primary ferment time-frames & associated processes pre, & post when primary fermentation is complete.

P.S. Yes the yeast will multiply & create extra cells, but given the minute amount of sugar added at this stage the residual extra yeast leftover would be barely noticeable or worth talking about (IMHO).

Cheers,

Lusty.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Beerlust

[Aussiekraut]

9 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Hi Aussiekraut. This is actually incorrect MOST of the time. The only way you can create more sediment naturally carbonating a beer is to use a source that is NOT 100% fermentable.

Most home brewers use sugar or dextrose to secondary ferment (carbonate) their beer. These sources are 100% fermentable by the yeast thus leave no residual body or added sediment behind as part of that secondary fermentation process.

If you were to use malt extract or something like golden syrup/molasses as the sugar source (and numerous others) to secondary ferment (carbonate) your beer, then yes there will be residual carryover of unfermentable material as part of their make-up that will leave small amounts of added sediment behind.

If you are using sugar or dextrose to secondary ferment your beer & still experiencing excessive amounts of sediment, then that is related to your primary ferment time-frames & associated processes pre, & post when primary fermentation is complete.

P.S. Yes the yeast will multiply & create extra cells, but given the minute amount of sugar added at this stage the residual extra yeast leftover would be barely noticeable or worth talking about (IMHO).

Cheers,

Lusty.

But the additional sugar leads to an increase in yeast as it starts to multiply again and hence there will be more sediment in the bottle once the yeast settles. Or not?

[Beerlust]

34 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

But the additional sugar leads to an increase in yeast as it starts to multiply again and hence there will be more sediment in the bottle once the yeast settles. Or not?

 

10 hours ago, Beerlust said:

...P.S. Yes the yeast will multiply & create extra cells, but given the minute amount of sugar added at this stage the residual extra yeast leftover would be barely noticeable or worth talking about (IMHO).

You will always have some sediment in the bottle when naturally carbonating. But if you are experiencing excessive amounts of trub then this is due to a lack of filtering, fining, & perhaps cold conditioning of the wort/beer through the processes. Although I rarely use fining agents, I do filter my wort pre-fermentation, & cold condition my beer post primary fermentation before bottling/kegging.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[Aussiekraut]

3 hours ago, Beerlust said:

 

You will always have some sediment in the bottle when naturally carbonating. But if you are experiencing excessive amounts of trub then this is due to a lack of filtering, fining, & perhaps cold conditioning of the wort/beer through the processes. Although I rarely use fining agents, I do filter my wort pre-fermentation, & cold condition my beer post primary fermentation before bottling/kegging.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

I don't see excessive amounts of sediment but the difference between a bottle which failed to carbonate (forgotten carbonation drop for example) and a fully carbonated bottle is quite big. Also bottle which take a long time to carbonate appear to have way less sediment after 2 weeks than after 4 or 5, when they finally are ready. The yeast eating the sugar in a bottle doesn't cause more "debris" to be released other than the yeast itself does it? I jut go by what I observe.

[Otto Von Blotto]

The increase in sediment could simply be due to the speed at which the yeast drops out as well. 

I get very little sediment in my kegs. It's usually cleared from the dip tube before the first glass is even filled, except when the keg goes straight in and it hasn't had a chance to really drop out yet. Due to it clearing quickly I usually just pour 50-60mL and tip it out before pouring the first beer. It's then clear until it runs out and starts sucking up the dregs. 

[Beerlust]

22 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I don't see excessive amounts of sediment but the difference between a bottle which failed to carbonate (forgotten carbonation drop for example) and a fully carbonated bottle is quite big. Also bottle which take a long time to carbonate appear to have way less sediment after 2 weeks than after 4 or 5, when they finally are ready. The yeast eating the sugar in a bottle doesn't cause more "debris" to be released other than the yeast itself does it? I jut go by what I observe.

As most home brewers that bottle don't cold condition their beer, & their bottled beer is housed under ambient conditions, these very fine sediments including yeast do take some time to drop out of suspension & compact at the base of the bottle.

Although ravenous, yeast aren't quite the same as the Cookie Monster leaving biscuit crumbs everywhere after they eat. 

 

Due to the way most standard FV's are setup the tap resides just above the trub level so when you are filling your bottles a little bit of that trub is often drawn up through the tap. There are ways around that if you wish to invest more time &/or money. You could syphon from the top (away from the trub into your bottles. You could pour off into a secondary fermenter & allow to settle out further. You could use a small pump & filter setup attached to the tap & filter into bottles etc. You could use a post fermentation fining agent before bottling. A number of the modern conical fermenters have removable sediment catchers/yeast collectors built into the base of them for this purpose.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Beerlust

[Marty_G]

I moved to kegs this year and after temp control it is the best thing i did. +1 to the ease of kegs. The taste for mine is better by a small bit as I get a more consistent head and carbonation.  As far as the Kegerator my guess is there will be 2 schools of thought to this: 1) Nah make your own, which i did and is easy if you are handy and have time to acquire a mix of new and second hand stuff or 2) buy all new.

Myself and many others have made our own and found it cheaper and easy to do, while many have bought the full box and dice new and love them. Anyway once you get a keg system you will never look back.  For mine there are 3 quantum leaps in brewing, temp control, kegging and AG.  

[The Captain!!]

On 10/23/2019 at 12:35 PM, Buko said:

brew would taste better if kegged?  And to buy a kegorator , do you guys think the investment

Again welcome Mel. 
As many have said and given advice. None of them have said how awesome your friends are at giving you the advice that is needed. (only a little tongue in cheek)

I am a believer in kegged beer tastes better for the majority of beers styles. There are only a few that I still bottle. 
Im not sure what it is however, it just tastes better. And I’m not even going to say in my opinion because I’m right ha ha ha. 

My progression was kits, AG, temp control, kegs. Within about 9 or so months of starting. The progression went from meh, ok cool, awesome, magnificent. My knowledge also improved a lot since the start and now never really have awful beers.

I honestly believe new brewers should start with temp control. Then get a fermenter. It’ll make sure that first brew doesn’t put you off for life. 

As for your question, yes, it’s worth the investment!

Good luck with the build. Welcome to the rabbit hole. 
Kirk
 

[ozlizard]

Welcome Buko! I am at the same point as you, really contemplating moving to kegging (and temp control!). I am about to purchase some more Coopers bottles and it got me thinking about having to clean and handle AND store all those bottles. I know nothing about kegging home brew so at the risk of pirating this thread I was going to put it out there on what is the best/cheapest starting setup. I would like a Kegerator but the cost atm is way out of my budget! Any advice for myself and Buko on this topic will be much appreciated.

[Marty_G]

cheapest option is a second hand corny keg for about $50.00 on gumtree or $60-70 from KegKing and a party tap and a 2.9kg gas bottle and reg should be able to get it all for around $200-$250 and a free fridge of Gummy or market place. But it does depend on where you are as there seems to be more secondhand stuff in the southern states.  Then over time add more kegs. Depending on how quick you drink I think 3 kegs is around about right .... i have 4 x 19 1 x 25 and a 13lt .  Once you start kegging you really don't need too many bottles.  If you still make 23l brews will either need to bottle the left overs and drink those or put into a spare keg.  

[ozlizard]

55 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

heapest option is a second hand corny keg for about $50.00 on gumtree or $60-70 from KegKing and a party tap and a 2.9kg gas bottle and reg should be able to get it all for around $200-$250 and a free fridge of Gummy or market place. But it does depend on where you are as there seems to be more secondhand stuff in the southern states.  Then over time add more kegs. Depending on how quick you drink I think 3 kegs is around about right .... i have 4 x 19 1 x 25 and a 13lt .  Once you start kegging you really don't need too many bottles.  If you still make 23l brews will either need to bottle the left overs and drink those or put into a spare keg.  

Thanks, that sounds doable, if I can source the stuff locally. I am assuming you need the fridge to put the keg in?

[Marty_G]

1 hour ago, ozlizard said:

Thanks, that sounds doable, if I can source the stuff locally. I am assuming you need the fridge to put the keg in?

Yes that is right. Then over time you can aquire taps etc and turn it into e kegger ... loads on here have done just that. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I went the kegerator way and bought everything new, but it is more expensive than building something from an old fridge and second hand gear. At the time, there were no budget constraints other than buying all the stuff over a period of a couple of months. 

Anyway, I have 6 beer kegs (7 if you count the little 10 litre one), that all get rotated around through different brews. The idea was to build a stockpile but it's pretty hard with one fermenter. Getting the second one set up probably on the weekend, so that'll make things easier. 

[Buko]

Once again ,thanks guys for all your input. Hey Otto you drink more than me SEVEN KEGS LOL . Think ill go order 2 x kegs and a tap n hose with a gas bottle ? Main reason for my original post was taste as compared to bottle conditioning vs forced carbonation ? As some beers improve a lot in the bottle over time and kegging is a week or two, am i correct ?

Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's more about being able to have a small stockpile, so when a couple of kegs run out there's another two ready to go in. Hasn't quite worked with just one fermenter, but with two it should be pretty easy. 

Conditioning time depends largely on the beer style. Some are good early, some need more time to hit their peak. This time is generally shortened in kegs because they do condition quicker than bottles. 

When I would bottle leftovers, I'd often find that they would taste the same as the force carbonated kegged portion of the batch - it just took them an extra 4-6 weeks to get there. 

[Buko]

Thanks Otto , that was what i thought might be the case . Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

No worries. It's the reason why I've continued with force carbonating everything I keg and drink, better beer sooner, and I don't have to wait around for a week or two for it to carbonate if I don't want to. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto