Increasing Wort amount

[Journeyman]

OK, I am still to bottle my first brew - see below topic. 

However I have various kit bits from my 2nd hand purchase (FV and other brew gear) plus things others didn't want. Among this are 2 Coopers Draught cans - rather old at well over a year - that I thought might be useful as bases to which I can add hops or play around a bit trying things out.  I thought I might try re-using yeast either from current brew (if it works OK) or from the Pale stubbies as discussed elsewhere to make the draught beer.

In looking around at the recipes pages and other places, I've seen that often, the higher strength beers us more than just a Coopers can of wort OR they use less water, making maybe 20 litres instead of 23. Do either or both these work to increase the ABV of the final product? (with more yeast I am presuming  ) 

I'm thinking of maybe using a Coopers Dark Ale (just bought) and adding one of the draught in to make a stronger beer. Apart from possibly horrified gasps of outrage at what that might do to flavours (and happy to take advice there  ) would that increase the ABV? Alternatively would be to try both Draught cans with fresh yeast in a 23L brew.

If I do a normal brew as per can recipe and decrease the water by (say) 5L would that give me a stronger beer?

[BlackSands]

The biggest issue you may face when you brew a "toucan" is increased bitterness.   The Dark Ale can is fairly bitter on its own already so if you then combine that with a Draught can you may then find it's too much.  If you then reduce the volume that too is going to further increase bitterness, and yes it will also increase ABV.   Personal taste and preference though and really depends what kind of brew you are going for.   If all you want is just more alcoholic strength, without the extra bitterness, then you might be better to pair up the Coopers cans with some unhopped malt extract, and perhaps a nominal amount of dextrose/sugar.   The draught can, combined with say 1.5kg of unhopped light extract and a couple hundred grams of sugar, made up to 18 litres would end up around 6% ABV or so and have a bitterness typical of many beers styles - British bitters, pale ales etc.   

[Journeyman]

I have some brown sugar in the cupboard - if I used that for the sugars, what might that contribute to mouth and/or flavour?

Also, is the difference between Light malt and Dark malt just the toasting of the grains?

I'd LIKE to get a strong, reasonably dark beer along the lines of an IPA - similar to the Fixation beer from Byron Bay. So far that's the best beer I have had. I like IPA's IIPA's and APA's in general but I figured to start with making a decent and strong beer, then move to playing around with hops and other flavours.

[Aussiekraut]

50 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

OK, I am still to bottle my first brew - see below topic. 

However I have various kit bits from my 2nd hand purchase (FV and other brew gear) plus things others didn't want. Among this are 2 Coopers Draught cans - rather old at well over a year - that I thought might be useful as bases to which I can add hops or play around a bit trying things out.  I thought I might try re-using yeast either from current brew (if it works OK) or from the Pale stubbies as discussed elsewhere to make the draught beer.

In looking around at the recipes pages and other places, I've seen that often, the higher strength beers us more than just a Coopers can of wort OR they use less water, making maybe 20 litres instead of 23. Do either or both these work to increase the ABV of the final product? (with more yeast I am presuming  ) 

I'm thinking of maybe using a Coopers Dark Ale (just bought) and adding one of the draught in to make a stronger beer. Apart from possibly horrified gasps of outrage at what that might do to flavours (and happy to take advice there  ) would that increase the ABV? Alternatively would be to try both Draught cans with fresh yeast in a 23L brew.

If I do a normal brew as per can recipe and decrease the water by (say) 5L would that give me a stronger beer?

It's called a toucan, but as BlackSands pointed out, there are some drawbacks in terms of bitterness. 

Generally, the more fermentables you put into the wort, the stronger the beer gets. Also of course reducing the water used. Many people use 20l instead of the recommended 23l to bring the ABV level up a little and add more body to the final brew. 

As for those draught cans, you can pimp them up a bit with some malt instead of the BE recommended. Use malt instead of the recommended BE, add some specialty grains, some hops etc. You said you had already looked the the recipe section, You should get some good inspiration from there, even if you don't have all the ingredients, you can still figure out what goes with what and just experiment a bit. 

 

[Journeyman]

Experimenting costs so it will be slow. But I've been reading around for clues - also started working through John Palmer's book to get some basics and more advanced understanding.

Am I correct the DIY cans are NOT 'fermentables'? That, using that term you mean the sugar/malt content?

[Journeyman]

Hm... Also re Blacksands comments - can increased bitterness be addressed with sugars that are not fully fermentable? Sucrose and the like? Or is it a different cause for the bitterness?

[Aussiekraut]

7 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Experimenting costs so it will be slow. But I've been reading around for clues - also started working through John Palmer's book to get some basics and more advanced understanding.

Am I correct the DIY cans are NOT 'fermentables'? That, using that term you mean the sugar/malt content?

No, they are too. There are sugars which yeast can't ferment like maltodextrin IIRC, which are adding sweetness and body to a beer.

[BlackSands]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Hm... Also re Blacksands comments - can increased bitterness be addressed with sugars that are not fully fermentable? Sucrose and the like? Or is it a different cause for the bitterness?

The bitterness in beer comes from isomerisation of the hops alpha-acids during boiling.   The Coopers DIY beer cans (and others) are pre-hopped with bittering hops- i.e. hops have been boiled as part of the manufacturing process.   The bitterness in a beer can be offset by sweetness and is often in fact one of the goals of a brewer to find the 'right' balance for a particular beer style. 

There are a number of ways to increase a beers sweetness, but sucrose (table sugar) isn't one of them!  It's 100% fermentable.   There are a few ways sweetness can be increased though - non-fermentable sugars of one sort are another can be used, maltodextrin was mentioned, lactose is another.   Also the use of low-attenuating yeasts -  yeasts that don't ferment out as dry as others, and the use of certain specialty malts (crystal/caramel malts) etc. all help add sweetness to a beer.   These adjuncts can also impact on mouth-feel/body of the beer.  Needless to say it can all get rather complicated! 

[Journeyman]

35 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

There are a number of ways to increase a beers sweetness, but sucrose (table sugar) isn't one of them!

My bad - I thought I read (while looking at increasing ABV) that table sugar wasn't that good for doing that because yeast had trouble fermenting it. So I figured it might be residual after fermenting.

Does that mean sucrose is good for increasing ABV or is there some other factor re ABV?

[BlackSands]

On 10/22/2019 at 5:02 PM, Journeyman said:

My bad - I thought I read (while looking at increasing ABV) that table sugar wasn't that good for doing that because yeast had trouble fermenting it. So I figured it might be residual after fermenting.

Does that mean sucrose is good for increasing ABV or is there some other factor re ABV?

You may have read something that suggested sucrose was more 'difficult' to ferment because it's a disaccharide, unlike the monosaccharide dextrose/gluscose which is often also referred to as brewing sugar.   Maltose, the main fermentable obtained from mashing malted barley is also a disaccharide and yeast certainly doesn't seem to have too many problems with fermenting that.

Any number of fermentables - dextrose, sucrose, maltose, fructose etc etc will add to the beers ABV. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

Maltodextrin doesn't increase sweetness but lactose does, as well as malts such as crystal or simply using more malt, however that also will increase ABV. 

Agreed, yeast have no trouble fermenting disaccharides, it's just that they have to break them down to their parts first, so it's a little more work but certainly no trouble. 

[BlackSands]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Maltodextrin doesn't increase sweetness...

It certainly wouldn't be a first choice if you're wanting to add sweetness, as a sweetener it's not generally considered sweet enough to be of any use in that context but it can be anywhere from moderately sweet to pretty much flavorless, depending on the degree of polymerisation.  I'm not sure where the stuff used in common brew enhancers sits on that low-sweetness scale though as the main purpose of it in brewing of course is just to enhance body and mouthfeel.  

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's why I figure it's on the low end. It's there for body and mouthfeel without affecting the flavour too much or at all, like carapils.