Brewing again after a bit of a hiatus

[Loch Brewer]

Hello again everyone. After about 2 years of not brewing i'm back with a vengeance . Sort of. The Fermentasaurus FV's caught my eye and I was hoping this would take my brewing to the next level, along with John Palmer's "How to brew" book.  So far it's not going quite as well as i hoped. Brew 1 was a Two Birds amber ale fresh hopped wort. dry hopped with 45g EKG and 25g cascade. The resulting beer tasted bitter and home brewie...

Brew2 was a stout - coopers kit can, plusB.E.3. Ended up it tasted too sweet and had a slight stale water smell. (Taken up using Coles spring water as my tank water has a low ph. Need to get a proper water test.

Currently in the fermentasaurus is a coopers larger that i used with white labs liquid San Francisco liquid yeast. The last SG reading tasted ok, more bitter than i'd like but i think it'll be my best brew so far in the take 3 of my brewing career . Fingers crossed. I'll keg it this weekend.

Cheers. 

Sandy

[Aussiekraut]

If you want to make good beer, listen to the people here. Don't just read replies to your own posts but browse the forum, follow other things and you'll be right. There is a wealth of knowledge around here and things can only get better. Listen and learn.

I personally am not too big a friend of the brew enhancers tbh. I find the resulting beer a little "thin". I prefer using malt extracts instead and specialty grains and hops to adjust colour and taste.  But it's all about personal taste in the end. Don't let failures or poor beers deter you. If you follow this forum, you will soon make beer which tastes very good. Don't jump to the big ones right away, start small and grow as you go.

Happy brewing.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Aussiekraut

[Lab Cat]

Give some of the Coopers recipes a go. I can't say anything I've brewed has tasted home brewy. Even when I did pales, which are basically a pale can an any hops I fancy. I always brew with dry or liquid malt. Never got a good beer from BE or mixed sugar kits.

[Marty_G]

If you don't have temperature control that is what I would consider the fundamental step to taking brewing to the next level. No matter how good your processes are unless you can control the fermentation rate via regulated temp you are fighting a losing battle. Sure one can make great beer without temp control but one can not get repeatable results without it.  

[Loch Brewer]

Yep, been doing all that guys, i've brewed many a coopers recepie , "hop gobbler" english bitter used to be my favourite. Been running a temp controller for the last 8 or so. I've been brewing on and off for 20+ years now and i was hoping the fermentasuarus and the ability to keg straight from the FV under pressure with no exposure to O2 would be a great help, and i'm sure it will. 

I've been suspicious  that liquid malt extract - particularly LME kits, have a "home brew tang". And when I read Palmer's "How to brew" he pretty much confirmed it. Which is why I'll be going towards DME + grain and all grain brewing, as well as liquid yeast only. 

So a BIAB set up could be on the christmas list

[Lab Cat]

I've read a lot about this home-brew tang/twang, but I've never experienced it. I've been brewing just over a year, all sorts of styles and I only do KK and hop additions. Lots my beer is given to some picky drinkers and no one has commented about any off flavours. Most have been impressed with the results. Not much to do with my ability, probably more about the quality of today's kits.

[Worts and all]

2 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

I've read a lot about this home-brew tang/twang, but I've never experienced it. I've been brewing just over a year, all sorts of styles and I only do KK and hop additions. Lots my beer is given to some picky drinkers and no one has commented about any off flavours. Most have been impressed with the results. Not much to do with my ability, probably more about the quality of today's kits.

I,too am puzzled by this “twang” business. I have read many descriptions of it and can relate none of them to my KK brews. In fact, no two people seem to agree on what it is exactly, even less what causes it. I suspect the fairies at the bottom of the garden. I will continue to deny it’s existence,brew delicious beer like you , and smile a lot Cheers.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Yeah its difficult to describe. I do kits sometimes myself as fillers with a mash of grains and while its less of a twang than a kit and kilo of DME its still there. I think the reduction process does something to the hop flavour as when i did extract boils i never got it. Thats my theory anyway.

[Worthog]

Welcome back to brewing @Loch Brewer.

I think you need to go through the processes that the "loud minority" on this wonderful Coopers forum have done.

After doing your Coopers plus partial grain mashes, stove top, with your select hops etc, you will get a feeling that you can build a beer you like, but not yet, until you make some "step" process and equipment changes.

Not Expensive! Read about BIAB. Look at a 40L mash/brew pot.

Now you are beginning to control your brewing destiny.

Cheers

[YeastyBoy]

Onya @Loch Brewer

Trust your next brew works out for you.

I have found Palmer a great source of useful information and his book "How to Brew" is progressive to all grain brewing.

Cheers YB

[BlackSands]

15 hours ago, Loch Brewer said:

I've been suspicious  that liquid malt extract - particularly LME kits, have a "home brew tang". And when I read Palmer's "How to brew" he pretty much confirmed it.

Given that the vast majority brew kits are based on LME and successfully brewed the world over I have serious doubts about this assertion.  I've detected what I thought was maybe tang/twang once in a brew earlier this year where I boiled the LME for a long time, (which I don't normally do) but otherwise, after countless brews using LME I too have never experienced it.  

Brulosophy did a LME/DME side-by-side:

"A total of 7 tasters reported preferring the LME beer, another 7 said they liked the DME beer more, 2 had no preference despite noticing a difference, and 2 reported perceiving no difference."

There are however two slight disadvantages of LME over DME, one is it's shorter shelf-life and the other is that it produces a darker beer compared to the same recipe brewed with DME.  For me LME has a very significant advantage in that it is a LOT cheaper than DME.

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by BlackSands

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Its got nothing to do with LME in my opinion. When i did extract boils i used the coopers unhopped LME extracts and no twang whatsoever. That left one other variable which is the hop input in the kits. Can be the only thing that causes it in my mind.

[Worts and all]

As I said, no two people-  - - -! My money stays on the fairies.

[BlackSands]

39 minutes ago, Worts and all said:

 My money stays on the fairies.

Based on what evidence?   

[Worts and all]

21 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Based on what evidence?   

Ah,but the thing with fairies is they leave no evidence.They then sit back and laugh at the arguments that arise from their nefarious actions.

[Loch Brewer]

2 hours ago, BlackSands said:

Given that the vast majority brew kits are based on LME and successfully brewed the world over I have serious doubts about this assertion.  I've detected what I thought was maybe tang/twang once in a brew earlier this year where I boiled the LME for a long time, (which I don't normally do) but otherwise, after countless brews using LME I too have never experienced it.  

Brulosophy did a LME/DME side-by-side:

"A total of 7 tasters reported preferring the LME beer, another 7 said they liked the DME beer more, 2 had no preference despite noticing a difference, and 2 reported perceiving no difference."

There are however two slight disadvantages of LME over DME, one is it's shorter shelf-life and the other is that it produces a darker beer compared to the same recipe brewed with DME.  For me LME has a very significant advantage in that it is a LOT cheaper than DME.

 

Well all i know is what my taste buds have been telling me. Everyone is different and some people cannot taste things that others can. I can definitely taste it and it's very off putting.

[Lab Cat]

It's possible local water differences might interact differently with yeast and hops? Water might be fine to drink from, but could still be poor quality in taste and make up.

My experiences with kits are the total opposite, as I mentioned. I think my own palate is decent, but I know what I like and hop-bomb/juice-monster craft beers aren't it, so I'm not brewing massive flavours that could mask any kit twang. My water is fine, but not great, it's on the hard side.

I don't think you can put twang down to kits so assuredly. No one here has had the same experiences (that I'm aware of) and most KK brewers here are using Coopers and/or other premium kits. Personally, I think there are only good kits and ordinary ones.

[Loch Brewer]

1 hour ago, Lab Rat said:

It's possible local water differences might interact differently with yeast and hops? Water might be fine to drink from, but could still be poor quality in taste and make up.

My experiences with kits are the total opposite, as I mentioned. I think my own palate is decent, but I know what I like and hop-bomb/juice-monster craft beers aren't it, so I'm not brewing massive flavours that could mask any kit twang. My water is fine, but not great, it's on the hard side.

I don't think you can put twang down to kits so assuredly. No one here has had the same experiences (that I'm aware of) and most KK brewers here are using Coopers and/or other premium kits. Personally, I think there are only good kits and ordinary ones.

I've started using bought water to try; so far can't draw any conclusions. I will get my tank water tested one day soon. My suspicion re twang is more the hopped LME kits rather than the LME itself , the Thomas Coopers IPA i found particularly bad. Tried it 3 times, disliked it 3 times........... I've done a few LME scratch recipes and haven't really noticed it - although they have ended up sweeter than I'd like.

A further possibility is lack of O2 in the water at the start of the brew. I used to boil my tank water first. i've started aerating the wort with a SST airstone through a HEPA filter. So further testing is underway !   Just wish i had the time and about 6 fermenters to run simultaneously using different techniques.

[Shamus O'Sean]

I have to agree with @Lab Rat on this one.  Other than my first Coopers Lager brew, that had a cidery taste, I have not noticed a tang or twang in my beers.  

I do notice a residual sweetness or increased body in many of the KnK's done with the recommended Brew Enhancer.  A sweetness I do not notice in similar commercial examples.  I think the packaged bitterness in the kits is on the modest side to appeal to more drinkers.  A higher bitterness could balance the sweetness better.  I get this with short hop boil additions.

I have only done four all grain brews, but even they have a similar sweetness and body.  I probably have not got the bitterness to grain ratio quite right yet.

Some of the tactics described above could help deal with any twang you might detect.  Dry extract appears to be popular as an option.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi @Loch Brewer, your endeavours to deal with the twang notes is pretty inspirational.  Like you say one of the challenges is not having 6 fermenters to run side by side tests.  Drinking the proceeds from 6 fermenters would be a big challenge too.

Cheers Shamus

PS - Welcome back to the brewing.  It sounds like you have some great experiences to share.

[Lab Cat]

20 minutes ago, Loch Brewer said:

My suspicion re twang is more the hopped LME kits rather than the LME itself , the Thomas Coopers IPA i found particularly bad. Tried it 3 times, disliked it 3 times........... I've done a few LME scratch recipes and haven't really noticed it - although they have ended up sweeter than I'd like.

Don't discount the idea that you just didn't like the kit - the simplest solutions are usually the right ones. Especially if it's the premium kits which are more heavily hopped to begin with. I've done a few kits that I didn't like.

Then there's brewer mistakes and I've made a few of those. I brewed a brown ale with choc malt that my No.1 tester (and lapsed brewer) thought was off or infected. It had an overly bitter metallic taste, as I didn't use enough malt to balance the choc malt, which dominated. 6 weeks later I gave him the same beer and he thought it was way better. Still not to either of our tastes, but not harsh anymore.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Marty_G]

I have had the cidery twang in a couple of my brews and 100% certain that it is from under pitching and using the kit yeast which is on a 7g sachet. Once I started using the specialty yeasts particularity the harvested yeast all hints of the Acetaldehyde's disappeared except for 1 pils brew which I know was a massive under pitch using Urquell 2001 which took 5 days to start to show active signs of ferment.  Also those that use high proportions of cane or corn sugars.  I use light dry malt almost exclusively. So to ensure you don't get it use LDM and high pitching rates particularly if you pitch into high gravity worts as lots of the high gravity kits use some form of glucose either as dextrose and maltodextrine to increase the OG.  If i want to increase the OG I would use LDM and a syrup as the sugars are inverted in the syrups. Usually golden for my ales or rice in lagers which I rarely brew as I am on a quest to brew a wonderful Pils but the coupe of lagers i brewed using Rice Syrup as an adjunct were great ... 

 

[MitchBastard]

Is it possible the home brew twang is a result of drinking a batch too early? I found an Oktoberfest (coopers kit recipe) I’d brewed about 4 months prior and it literally had no twang that the others had. This twang went with age. This doesn’t work with all beers but just a thought. 

Before AG I did notice what I describe as a “home brewed flavour”  in kits or recipes that didn’t require larger amount of hop additions or dry hopping. I’m guessing these hop additions help mask it??

id never found the home brewed twang with anything commercial until I started home brewing. Trying a greater array of commercial and or craft beers to train the pallet/nose has uncovered a similar after tastes in SOME widely produced beers, just to lesser extent flavour wise. 

Who bloody knows 

Edited October 6, 2019 by MitchBastard

[BlackSands]

1 hour ago, MitchBastard said:

Who bloody knows 

Lot's of people think they do!   

One thing I can add is that WAY back in the day when I first ventured into homebrewing the infamous 'twang' was in fact a very common characteristic taste of homebrew, and probably the one thing that gave homebrew a bad reputation back then.   In those uninformed days of ignorance we used a ton of table sugar in all recipes and knew nothing of pitching rates, I just used a plain packet of generic "beer yeast" (probably just a mere 5g) and there was no consideration toward temp control of any kind.   

Today there's no excuse but it is excessive use of simple sugars (particularly sucrose) that is still most often blamed for the presence of a cidery off taste which I guess could be the same thing as 'twang'.     

[Marty_G]

2 hours ago, BlackSands said:

table sugar in all recipes

 

2 hours ago, BlackSands said:

generic "beer yeast" (probably just a mere 5g)

Yep, the two main ingredients needed for twang ... way back in those days 3 decades ago I would age the bottles for an eternity and make mostly "Dark Ales" and never ever ever a lager or a draught as they were disgusting.