First brew with Coopers 23l kit

[iBooz2]

Hi Guys,

I recently took early retirement and getting back into brewing after a spell of some 35 years so went and bought all the gear I should need to get going again.  Got a cooper’s 23 litre kit a couple of extra boxes of their PET bottles, cleaning and sanitising stuff, bottle drain tree, heat pad and electronic dual temperature controller.

Got an old fridge and FV fits perfectly inside after some shelf mods so that is all set up. A test run was done over a few days with a tub of water and separate thermometer to check electronic controller would hold it close to the actual temperature pre-set and all was ok so I think I am good to go.

Kudos to the guys who created those recipe spreadsheets too.  I worked on one for about two days before I discovered the ones on this forum so a big thanks for saving so much time and trouble for so many home brewers.

A few questions to the HB gods in here.

I notice the lager tin that came with the original kit says it needs BE2 whereas Coopers have supplied a BE1.  I went and bought a BE2 for my first batch so no big deal but can I tweak the BE1 pack with something to equate to a BE2 for subsequent brews?  Later on if I can mimic a Cooper’s pale ale or Stone and Wood’s pacific ale I would be more than happy.

Also the general consensus is that the Cooper’s supplied 7g of yeast is actually ale yeast because it’s more forgiving of maybe first timers and temperature but is 7g really enough?

Would I be better off buying some satchels of SAFLAGER W34-70 and using that instead?  If I do use the W34-70 I would definitely pitch and brew at the recommended 12-15c and aim for a true lager as it will be possible with my setup.  I read the specs of the W34-70 and they say dosage 80-120g per 100 litres so it sound like 2 x 11.5g satchels would be required for 23 litre wort.

On the subject of yeast is it better to pitch dry or re-hydrate first?

Any other tips for a first go at this Cooper’s lager tin?

Thanks in advance for your advice and sorry about long intro. Cheers.

[Aussiekraut]

Welcome to the forum. You've come to the right place. This is a wealth of knowledge and you will find some very helpful people in here.

The difference between BE1 and 2 is that BE1 contains dextrose and maltodextrin, where BE2 also contains some light dried malt but a little less dextrose and about half the maltodextrin. So you can kind of pimp it up by adding a little LDM extract to the BE1.

The yeast is usually enough if you simply use the kit and the BE. If you add more fermentables, you might want to use more yeast. and yes, the supplied yeast is an ale yeast. If you want to brew it like a true lager, you are better off using some good lager yeast. 

I've had one of the lager tins a few weeks ago when I bought a new Cooper's kit whilst on special. I wasn't sure what to do with it but ended up brewing it as an ale, using some Crystal malt extract and some Centennial and Amarillo hops and Safale US-05 yeast as advised here.  It turned out to be quite a nice beer. You may also want to have a look at the recipe section here. There are plenty of recipes you can use to pimp up the humble Cooper's tin.

But don't just take my word for it, there are much more knowledgable people in this forum much better suited to answer your questions.

[BlackSands]

Welcome.  

BE2 is a better choice than BE1 though an even better option would have been 100% malt extract rather than an enhancer, for reasons of improved flavour, mouth feel, head retention etc.   The Lager tin, among others is a good base to build on though you can of course brew it simply as is for a somewhat unremarkable beer.   Hop additions in the form of a hop tea would the simplest and perhaps most impactful improvement you could make with a minimal amount of fuss.  Including steeped specialty malt grains is also another way of building flavour, body and colour into the beer.

Two packets of lager yeast is quite common when fermenting cold and if you want a 'true' lager then using a lager yeast strain is the usual practice.   W34/70 is actually quite a temperature tolerant lager strain and it's be found by some that it can actually be fermented at ale fermentation temperatures (18-22ºC) without impacting on the final outcome: http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fermentation-temperature-pt-4-lager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

Quote

 On the subject of yeast is it better to pitch dry or re-hydrate first?

No need to rehydrate.  It's been much debated for a long time but Fermentis themselves have just recently released the results of a study into the subject and their conclusion was that there was no obvious benefit to rehydrating:  https://fermentis.com/en/news-from-fermentis/technical-reviews/e2u-direct-pitching/

Good luck with your brew!  

Edited September 26, 2019 by BlackSands

[Lab Cat]

I've never had any issues pitching straight from the packet. Coopers 7g works fine for a standard 23l brew, while it's less than most proprietary yeasts, they've ensured 7g is enough. If you brew any high acl brews with lots of fermentables, you'd need to pitch an extra yeast.

Many find the lager tin is rather average, but works well as a base in other recipes. Personally I'd brew it with the ale yeast, and save a real lager brew for when you're comfortable with your processes.

[iBooz2]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys and for you replies.

AK – Thanks for the tip: I have since followed up re the BE pack contents and trawled though the recipe sections to get some idea of what I need at hand in order to make some better brews.  The possibilities seem endless but I think I need to start humble and work my way up, learn from you blokes as I go.  Interesting that the BE1 pack says best used for lagers but their lager tin says best with BE2?

Black Sands – I dare not call you BS as that may be a bit disrespectful from a noob like me.  Your tips were exactly what I was looking for, a simple change to make a better brew out of a kit.  Those links proved good reading and good to know the yeast will be ok if I do not pitch it at exactly right temps as I don’t have a method to cool the wort down quickly other than adding cold water per cooper’s vid. so could be an issue if I go the lager yeast route. Plan was to get a second FV kit, maybe a fermzilla 27L (as one will not brew enough stock for me).  FV1 brew to kit instructions and FV2 tweak a bit to compare if I am heading in the right direction for my tastes.

LR – Yes I probably agree with you.  Get my cleaning regime and processes right before testing my skills and it’s probably better to have something to go by, a basis of what I do right and what I do wrong from there.  Doing practice runs in my mind before throwing it all in the FV.

So it’s off to the local home brew supply shop with an empty car and a full wallet to get a lot more gear.  YouTube is a bastard sometimes – cheers.

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

Thanks for the warm welcome guys and for you replies.

Interesting that the BE1 pack says best used for lagers but their lager tin says best with BE2?

That's old stock BE1. Coopers changed their recommendation last year to BE2. BE1 makes are really thin beer IMO, but then I use all dry malt in my brews.

I've been brewing just over a year, and still kits and bits. It doesn't take long to get the hang of things, I was adding hops by my 3rd brew, then bittering some. I've been donig even simpler brew in winter, just kits (Real ale, Bitter, Innkeepers), malt and brown sugar for English ales. These have been good, but all could do with some dry hopping next time to get more flavour and aroma.

Main thing is good cleaning. You don't need to be obsessive about it, just methodical.

[Jamesrs59]

1 hour ago, Lab Rat said:

That's old stock BE1. Coopers changed their recommendation last year to BE2. BE1 makes are really thin beer IMO, but then I use all dry malt in my brews.

I've been brewing just over a year, and still kits and bits. It doesn't take long to get the hang of things, I was adding hops by my 3rd brew, then bittering some. I've been donig even simpler brew in winter, just kits (Real ale, Bitter, Innkeepers), malt and brown sugar for English ales. These have been good, but all could do with some dry hopping next time to get more flavour and aroma.

Main thing is good cleaning. You don't need to be obsessive about it, just methodical.

On the topic of cleaning, I have the basic stuff I brought when I got the Kit, but all powder form, where and what is cheapest & most convenient option moving forward? StarSan? StellerSan?

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi @Jamesrs59

For cleaning I use Di-San Oxy laundry soaker.  It contains 32% Sodium Percarbonate, which is the good cleaning stuff.  You can get a purer version from most Local Home Brew Shops (LHBS). 

For sanitising I use a no rinse Phosphoric Sanitiser by Keg King that i got from my LHBS.  It is easy to make up a litre each time i brew or bottle.  Half goes into a spray bottle, for coating the inside of fermenters and large surfaces.  The other half for dunking stuff like taps, measuring spoons, bottle caps, etc. A 300ml bottle has lasted me over a year.  I think Starsan and StellerSan are similar products. 

[Jamesrs59]

Thanks @Shamus O'Sean

 

appreciate the reply, happy Sunday! 

[Aussiekraut]

16 hours ago, Jamesrs59 said:

On the topic of cleaning, I have the basic stuff I brought when I got the Kit, but all powder form, where and what is cheapest & most convenient option moving forward? StarSan? StellerSan?

Shamus already pointed you in the right direction. I use StellarSan for sanitation. Clean bottles get a quick rinse in a solution and all equipment gets sprayed with a spray bottle.  Works a treat.

[Otto Von Blotto]

My cleaning is basically soaking in sodium percarbonate, rinsing then spraying with starsan. You have to remember that starsan or similar products aren't cleaners; the equipment needs to be clean first before it's sanitised. 

On the topic of lagers, my basic techniques that give me great beers every time are pitching a lot of yeast into them at or below ferment temp, fermenting low around 10-12 degrees, and doing a proper lagering after fermentation has finished. You can get away with pitching it warmer if you are unable to easily bring the wort temp down first, but when it comes to the post fermentation side, nothing beats longish term storage (2-3 months) at cold temperatures to improve lagers. May not be worth it with the one that comes with the kit however as it isn't a world beating lager anyway. 

I'll leave it up to others to do the ale temperature ferments with lager yeast... I'm happy with what the cool ferments result in, and don't see any point in risking a dud batch just to see what happens because it's either gonna be no different or worse. They already taste how I want them to which is the whole point of it all. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Aussiekraut]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...fermenting low around 10-12 degrees...

How long does a batch take to ferment at these low temps? I know it is like asking how long a piece of string was but ballpark? 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Aussiekraut

[MitchellScott]

10 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

How long does a batch take to ferment at these low temps? I know it is like asking how long a piece of string was but ballpark? 

My lager using S-23 yeast @ 12C is finished and is now day 12.

It was probably just about done by day 10 but I always leave it for a few more days and bump the temp up to 18C for a Diacetyl rest.

Mitch.

[Otto Von Blotto]

42 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

How long does a batch take to ferment at these low temps? I know it is like asking how long a piece of string was but ballpark? 

Usually 10 days or less to reach FG, however the temperature is allowed to rise to 18 after 5-6 days. 

[BlackSands]

On 9/30/2019 at 5:36 PM, Aussiekraut said:

How long does a batch take to ferment at these low temps? I know it is like asking how long a piece of string was but ballpark? 

Way too long if you're thirsty!  

It's actually one of the reasons I don't brew lagers very often, in fact hardly at all. I've done a few pilsners, but that's about it.  The other reason is that I seem to be less aware than some of the 'crisp and clean' benefits of cold fermentation and lager yeast strains.   My pilsners didn't really taste all that cleaner or crisper to me than my golden and pale ales so I stick to ales.  I'm sure if I handed one to an unsuspecting drinker and said it was a pilsner they'd be non the wiser  

[Aussiekraut]

13 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Way too long if you're thirsty!  

It's actually one of the reasons I don't brew lagers very often, in fact hardly at all. I've done a few pilsners, but that's about it.  The other reason is that I seem to be less aware than some of the 'crisp and clean' benefits of cold fermentation and lager yeast strains.   My pilsners didn't really taste all that cleaner or crisper to me than my golden and pale ales so I stick to ales.  I'm sure if I handed one to an unsuspecting drinker and said it was a pilsner they'd be non the wiser  

I'm more of an ale man myself but sometimes I crave a nice Pilsener or a Munich style "Helles" and now where I have a brew fridge, I'd like to try it the "correct" way. I quoted the word correct because without yet another fridge, cold lagering in SEQ is kinda impossible  

[BlackSands]

13 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

.... I'd like to try it the "correct" way. I quoted the word correct because without yet another fridge, cold lagering in SEQ is kinda impossible  

I don't have enough fridges to cold store either and though chilly here now it's not exactly fridge temps.

But when is a lager/pilsner not a lager?  Definitions vary but it seems most agree that it must be brewed with a lager yeast, fermented cold AND lagered.  So, does that mean it's not a lager if you ferment warm? e.g. Californian common.   Or not a lager if you don't  lager it?      And then there's the contradictory new BJCP category X5 "NZ Pilsner" which actually states they can be fermented with an ale yeast at cool temperatures.   

I've only ever brewed a few NZ pilsners, fermented warm with a cali lager yeast, and not lagered, but I still called them pilsners - rebel that I am!  .   

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

To me it's simple, if it's fermented with lager yeast it's a lager, ale yeast it's an ale. Obviously there are other factors that influence the flavour or how good or bad they are. 

I don't think you'll get the really clean, crisp flavour using standard pale extract because it's not made from the same malt that is usually used in lagers. I reckon if I brewed my pilsner with Maris otter instead of pilsner malt, it would be less crisp than it is. So that's an important part IMO, along with the yeast strain used. 

My best lagers have been the ones that have been lagered for at least 6 weeks; 2 in the fermenter and a month in the keg. This is part of what makes them what they are and there are no shortcuts. 

Generally I follow three basic principles when I make them: pitch a lot of yeast, ferment at the appropriate temperature, and lager for a minimum of 6 weeks. The last one doesn't always work out but that may change with two fermenters running soon. 

[Aussiekraut]

42 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

To me it's simple, if it's fermented with lager yeast it's a lager, ale yeast it's an ale. Obviously there are other factors that influence the flavour or how good or bad they are. 

I don't think you'll get the really clean, crisp flavour using standard pale extract because it's not made from the same malt that is usually used in lagers. I reckon if I brewed my pilsner with Maris otter instead of pilsner malt, it would be less crisp than it is. So that's an important part IMO, along with the yeast strain used. 

My best lagers have been the ones that have been lagered for at least 6 weeks; 2 in the fermenter and a month in the keg. This is part of what makes them what they are and there are no shortcuts. 

Generally I follow three basic principles when I make them: pitch a lot of yeast, ferment at the appropriate temperature, and lager for a minimum of 6 weeks. The last one doesn't always work out but that may change with two fermenters running soon. 

How do you lager them? In the ferment fridge or at ambient temps? I'm mainly looking at making the odd lager once I made the transition to AG. For the time being, kit and extract ales it is

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 minute ago, Aussiekraut said:

How do you lager them? In the ferment fridge or at ambient temps? I'm mainly looking at making the odd lager once I made the transition to AG. For the time being, kit and extract ales it is

Partly in the fermenter, partly in the kegs. I wasn't able to really do it with bottles because I had nowhere to store 70 stubbies cold. Cold and time are the keys to good lagering. Room temperature doesn't really work. 

[Aussiekraut]

14 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Partly in the fermenter, partly in the kegs. I wasn't able to really do it with bottles because I had nowhere to store 70 stubbies cold. Cold and time are the keys to good lagering. Room temperature doesn't really work. 

Hmmm I still have the old kitchen fridge in the shed but if I reactivate that one, SWMBO will not be happy  I might get away with using it for 4 weeks though, if it is still around by then  

[iBooz2]

Still have not laid down my first brew yet as I have to do the short 3,000km drive from Melbourne up to Cairns to paint out one of my houses very soon. Did not want to start a brew then have it waiting to be bottled when I would be away and could not finish it off.

Whilst waiting to get the above job organised I have been setting the home brewery up quite nicely.  Had two spare fridges so converted both those to ferment fridges, the smaller of the two for the coopers 23L FV and the larger one for the fermzilla 30L kit I bought.  Both the fridges have dual temp controllers and heat mats so they are all good to go.

Stocked up on supplies and now think I have so much I could be a pseudo LHBS.  Got my yeasts all stored in the fridge and other stuff in cool places.  Have not brought any hops yet as my other freezer needs a good defrost and clean-out, another job for when I get back.

Have been drinking lots of 150 lashes to collect the 345ml stubbies for overflow bottling.  They seem to be the heaviest of the stubbie range (196gm) and proper crown seals to boot so happy about that.  I will get some kegging happening a little later and would like to have some of these stubbies as testers or travellers, you know what I mean.

Anyway I have an exercise book with dozens of extract recipes I want to try before setting myself up further with all grain batches like I used to make way back in the day before extract kits hit the market.  This is thanks to all you blokes in here and those spreadsheets.  Cannot wait - Cheers guys

Edited October 24, 2019 by iBooz2
spelling

[Aussiekraut]

55 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Still have not laid down my first brew yet as I have to do the short 3,000km drive from Melbourne up to Cairns to paint out one of my houses very soon. Did not want to start a brew then have it waiting to be bottled when I would be away and could not finish it off.

Whilst waiting to get the above job organised I have been setting the home brewery up quite nicely.  Had two spare fridges so converted both those to ferment fridges, the smaller of the two for the coopers 23L FV and the larger one for the fermzilla 30L kit I bought.  Both the fridges have dual temp controllers and heat mats so they are all good to go.

Stocked up on supplies and now think I have so much I could be a pseudo LHBS.  Got my yeasts all stored in the fridge and other stuff in cool places.  Have not brought any hops yet as my other freezer needs a good defrost and clean-out, another job for when I get back.

Have been drinking lots of 150 lashes to collect the 345ml stubbies for overflow bottling.  They seem to be the heaviest of the stubbie range (196gm) and proper crown seals to boot so happy about that.  I will get some kegging happening a little later and would like to have some of these stubbies as testers or travellers, you know what I mean.

Anyway I have an exercise book with dozens of extract recipes I want to try before setting myself up further with all grain batches like I used to make way back in the day before extract kits hit the market.  This is thanks to all you blokes in here and those spreadsheets.  Cannot wait - Cheers guys

You sound like you're all set and ready to go. Get the Cairns job sorted quickly, so you can get on with the brewing  

Best of luck with your first one, once you get to it.

 

[Journeyman]

This thread took me off on a new reading course.

Now I'm thinking I need TWO fridges - one for the FV and another to do lagering. (now that I know what it is ) This site was most informative...Lagering Info

Building a list here of save-up/buying that should take me well into next year.

[iBooz2]

Now that my house north of Cairns has been all painted out and “tarted up” it’s time to get back into brewing in Melbourne.  Job took 2 months and it was one hell of a drive so I think I have earned a beer or three.

First brew laid down yesterday evening was simply the kit lager brew can, 1 x pack BE1, 1 x pack 500gm DME, kit yeast, 23 litre volume. Yeast pitched at 26C.  OG = 1045. FV in fridge controller set to 20C and brew was down to 21 in about 4 hours. 12 hours later foaming nicely so it is away.  Going to leave set temp at 20C.

Some problems noted and may help other new brewers.

Kitchen sink even though it is large and a double tub was not suitable for washing and sanitising all my gear so bought and used a large plastic tub for this sole purpose.

The diluted Atomic 15 sanitiser I used actually etches and damages Laminex kitchen bench-tops so those marks will have to be explained to the wife when she is in a good mood.

Mixing in the DME was problematic as it went all lumpy like meringues and took quite a while to dissolve but still not completely, will have to work on my technique here.

Could not get the wort temp down quickly, only used about 3 litres of boiling water to mix dry ingredients in a sanitised SS pot, rest was normal filtered cold tap water at about 21C.  I forgot after being away for so long I had a 15 litre cube of icy cold water ready in another fridge just for this purpose so really only a memory problem here.

Coopers kit hydrometer shows 3 points less than actual so need to remember to adjust its reading.

Now to get a second brew going in my other FV but what recipe?

Thanks Journeyman that lagering link was most informative

Cheers