Gravities finishing high

[Lab Cat]

Hi, I've asked brew shops and a brewer at work about this, and everyone shrugs.

My last 4 brews are struggling to get down to the Kit Kilo FG ballpark, I'm fermenting out to 1016.  1 beer got to 1014. I'm working on the premise a KK should finish around 1010-12 or lower with an OG/FG ABV of around 3.8% + 0.5% for the bottle sugar. But they're all finishing lower for ABV based on gravity calcs. My testers don't think any of these beers taste thin or 'lite' though. They've all been good beers.

last 3 have been KKs wth some steeped grains. 1 was a pils KK with just hops, no steep. My current one is an ESB, but with an extra 500g malt. This  started at 1045 and won't get below 1017, even upping the temp, for 3-4 days as I always do, but none of these brews have responded with further ferment activity.

Hydrometer checked, it's about 1 point out with a water check. I'm out of idea. Anyone?

[BlueBru]

Otto recently responded to a question of mine, Second Yeast?, and suggested that the yeast will only consume what fermentables are available.

I tend to use more malt , less sugar and get higher FG's. And if I interprit correctly, sugars ferment out better than malts. Please correct me anybody if I have misunderstood. You could look at your previous recipes and compare sugar/malt ratios and their FG's.

Hope this helps.

[The Captain!!]

@Beerlust

Think you have more experience in this area.  

Im thinking that this is normal, yeast dependent. 

And if your turning the temp up at the end.

Edited June 14, 2019 by The Captain!!

[Lab Cat]

Cheers

I always do kit and 1kg malt - no dex or other sugars. Except this current brew, where I used an extra 500g malt.

MJ42, US05 and 04 with the ales.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi @Lab Rat

I tend to finish higher with my KnK's.  I almost exclusively use LDM.  My finishing range is 1.012 to 1.017, but the lower is rare.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sugar doesn't ferment out "better" than malt, it's more that it is 100% fermentable, whereas malt extract isn't, and that's why it leads to higher FG, and a fuller body in the beer. The fermentable sugar in malt ferments out just as good as any other fermentable sugar. 

Steeped grains will also increase the FG. 

 

[Lab Cat]

19 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Steeped grains will also increase the FG.

Thanks - this is what I was suspecting. All the ales in question have added steeped grains, and consistently higher FGs.

But my pils also finished high which was a KK and no steeped grains. 1040-1016, so only 3.5%, with the bottle ferment. I can't explain this one, and with all the ales doing the same thing, it was bugging me as to why.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah it's a strange one. When I did kits they always finished around 1.010-12, and generally with a kg of dry malt or a tin of liquid malt. Some of them had grain steeps as well. 

Is your hydrometer 1 point out high or low? 

[BlackSands]

I've had the same issue in recent brews - finishing a few points higher than they should.  The last two batches used M54 Cali Lager yeast which failed to get anywhere near it's supposed 80% attenuation.  The most recent was a simple kit plus 1.5kg LME (plus hops).  Should have made it down to 1.010 but as with the previous it stopped at 1.014.  Around 67% attenuation.

I used to use S-04 a lot and rarely if ever had a brew, K&K or partial, go below 1.014 with that yeast either.   Also, a few months ago a batch using M42 stopped short at.... yup, you guessed it 1.014!   Meanwhile a current batch, using the slurry from that brew is currently down at 1.013 and still going...

I have no explanation for these SG short falls but wonder if a small dose of nutrient might help?    

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Very much depends on the yeast where it ends. S04 is one that does finish high. Stated attenuation figures are rubbish. WY1214 has a stated attenuation of high 70s on the wyeast website but it regularly finishes in the mid 90s. Only through using the yeasts will you get a good feel for it.

[Lab Cat]

7 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yeah it's a strange one. When I did kits they always finished around 1.010-12, and generally with a kg of dry malt or a tin of liquid malt. Some of them had grain steeps as well. 

Is your hydrometer 1 point out high or low? 

1 point high. It's a new glass one, my cooper kit cheapy died. It is odd, and that's why I'm baffled. The beers aren't suffering, but it does make it trickier to call it and crash.

I've been using temp control for a few months, but it's only the recent brews at issue. That's why I wondered about grain steeps, the only new variable. But I didn't use any wit the pils, and still finished high, so I remained confused.

I do check the working range of whatever yeast I'm using. But that's usually 20C for ales and 12C for lager. Like a lot of you, I'm bumping up the temp after 4-5 days to make sure it's done and cleaning up. My only reason for switching between MJ42 and US yeasts lately is to see it that is my wayward variable, but it's not.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Marty_G]

The way that I have rationalised the higher FG finishes as I also get them is: my OG is usually higher as well so I calculate what the FG should be for the suggested ABV and expect my FG should to be that many points lower and that where usually ...  30 points movement is around 4.5% ABV of the FV ... so i look for 30 oints movement ... the one i cold crashed today had 32 points movement OG 1044ish or a tad higher finished at 1012ish. Right where I expect it to be for the ABV... 

[Otto Von Blotto]

30 SG points is about 4% without adding the priming sugar contribution. 

[ozlizard]

My NEIPA is currently at 1.016 at day 7 and again at day 8 (OG 1.055). That puts it at about 5.1 ABV but I was hoping for a bit more, shouldn't a NEIPA be higher than that?

Temp has been constant 18-20.

[RDT2]

1 hour ago, Lab Rat said:

1 point high. It's a new glass one, my cooper kit cheapy died. It is odd, and that's why I'm baffled. The beers aren't suffering, but it does make it trickier to call it and crash.

I've been using temp control for a few months, but it's only the recent brews at issue. That's why I wondered about grain steeps, the only new variable. But I didn't use any wit the pils, and still finished high, so I remained confused.

I do check the working range of whatever yeast I'm using. But that's usually 20C for ales and 12C for lager. Like a lot of you, I'm bumping up the temp after 4-5 days to make sure it's done and cleaning up. My only reason for switching between MJ42 and US yeasts lately is to see it that is my wayward variable, but it's not.

What temp are you steeping at as this would also affect how low it would ferment, as this could also be a contributor and how many grains and what type apologies if it has been said already correct me if I am wrong

Edited June 15, 2019 by RDT2

[Hairy]

It would depend on the amount of grain. If only using 250-300g of specialty malts then I wouldn’t think that the steeping temp would have much impact on the FG.

[RDT2]

9 minutes ago, Hairy said:

It would depend on the amount of grain. If only using 250-300g of specialty malts then I wouldn’t think that the steeping temp would have much impact on the FG.

Cheers Hairy I was thinking more Mini Mash but he just steeped a few grains and the first one he didn’t steep any at all so I need to read slower .

[Otto Von Blotto]

It wouldn't make much, if any, difference with specialty grains being steeped by themselves. The majority that is extracted from them is unfermentable. 

Temperature affects FG with full mashing though because the lower the mash temp, the more fermentable sugar is extracted, so the FG is lower. 

[Beerlust]

Hi Lab Rat.

On 6/14/2019 at 6:41 PM, Lab Rat said:

Hi, I've asked brew shops and a brewer at work about this, and everyone shrugs.

...My current one is an ESB, but with an extra 500g malt. This  started at 1045 and won't get below 1017, even upping the temp, for 3-4 days as I always do, but none of these brews have responded with further ferment activity.

Hydrometer checked, it's about 1 point out with a water check. I'm out of idea. Anyone?

Quote

Posted June 5, Lab Rat said:

...I'm upping my fermantables by 500g with dark malt, to see how this works with a basic bitter can.

• Bitter Can 1.7kg
• 1kg LDM
• 500g DME
• 250g Crystal malt
• 60g Goldings
• US04

The Bitter Can 1.7kg Likely comprises base malts, crystal malts & roasted malts that will leave more body than say a Pale Ale kit or Lager kit.
1kg LDM Pretty standard fair for K&K but will leave more body & flavour than dextrose/sugar.
500g DME Usually comprised of base malt, crystal malts, & roasted malts. Will increase body levels in the final beer to higher levels.
250g Crystal malt Will leave increased body in the final beer.
S-04 Due to lower attenuation by this yeast strain, it will generally leave more residual sweetness & body in the final beer.

IMHO, the beer recipe has done very well to get down to 1.017 given the make-up.

Be very careful with your pitching rates once above the standard kit & kilo mixes, as the recipe you used above is getting very close to borderline for one sachet of yeast to ferment out that could potentially result in a stall, that if not correctly identified could lead to pre-mature bottling, & eventual bottle bombs.

If in doubt about pitching rate, pitch the kit yeast as well as the commercial strain. 

I hope that helps.

Lusty.

[Marty_G]

8 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

30 SG points is about 4% without adding the priming sugar contribution. 

 Sorry yes it is .... 

 

[Lab Cat]

8 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

30 SG points is about 4% without adding the priming sugar contribution. 

Thanks everyone, I think the dark malt, grain steep and yeast might be contributing based on replies. My grains were 250g. I didn't think I'd be anywhere near a double pitch - I thought that was only for toucan brews and stouts.

Good to know about the 30 points. I'm just on that, so looking at a 4.5% brew. My ABV app is showing 3.7% on my gravities, so I was thinking that's pretty low, even after adding the sugar.

My K and 1.5kg malt in the past have usually been at least 1% more. Not really bothered about 'hitting' numbers, just trying to understand why certain stuff happens. It still hasn't shifted, so it's CC now.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Lab Cat]

On 6/15/2019 at 5:49 PM, Beerlust said:

Hi Lab Rat.

The Bitter Can 1.7kg Likely comprises base malts, crystal malts & roasted malts that will leave more body than say a Pale Ale kit or Lager kit.
1kg LDM Pretty standard fair for K&K but will leave more body & flavour than dextrose/sugar.
500g DME Usually comprised of base malt, crystal malts, & roasted malts. Will increase body levels in the final beer to higher levels.
250g Crystal malt Will leave increased body in the final beer.
S-04 Due to lower attenuation by this yeast strain, it will generally leave more residual sweetness & body in the final beer.

IMHO, the beer recipe has done very well to get down to 1.017 given the make-up.

Be very careful with your pitching rates once above the standard kit & kilo mixes, as the recipe you used above is getting very close to borderline for one sachet of yeast to ferment out that could potentially result in a stall, that if not correctly identified could lead to pre-mature bottling, & eventual bottle bombs.

If in doubt about pitching rate, pitch the kit yeast as well as the commercial strain. 

I hope that helps.

Lusty.

Had a bit of a saga with this one. Been cold in Perth, and with 2 brews following on after each other, I've not been able to get the ESB carbonated in the garage (would have put the boxes in the fridge with a pan of hot water). It's coming up for a month in the bottle and finally cracked one.

I think the Dark malt is a fail here. If I'd used all LDM this would probably be a good EB, but it's too dark and roasty, and overly bitter. Lots of body and good feel though. A longer spell conditioning might mellow it out, so I'm shelving it, it's just too much at the moment. Lesson learned.