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More on the topic of bleach in the brewery


ChristinaS1

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Hi all. A while back we were discussing the use of bleach to clean haze from bottles (PET and glass) in this thread:

To summarize, while there was some debate about the advisability of using bleach in PET bottles, it is effective at removing haze, and without the use of elbow grease / scrubbing, whereas other frequently recommended methods (alkaline cleaners) have a lower success rate. Anyway, something interesting happened yesterday which I would like to share.

First a little background: I ferment in a glass carboy. Normally I bottle one day and brew again the next. After bottling I set my carboy to soak overnight with a scroop of PBW and a scoop of generic Oxiclean. In the morning I dump it out, rinse a few times, sanitize with Starsan, and then refill with a new batch of wort. In other words, my carboy is never dry. It have been using this particular carboy for a few years.

It just so happens that currently I am waiting a week between brews (for some home toasted malt to age). Long story short, my carboy is empty and enough time has passed for it to dry out on the inside. It was sitting in a beam of sunlight yesterday morning and I happened to see it while I was drinking my coffee. I was appalled to discover that it is quite hazy from the fill line down! I was shocked to see it, but in retrospect, if haze builds up in bottles, why shouldn't haze build up in a fermenter? And if alkaline cleaners and Starsan are not effective getting haze out of bottles, why should it be any different with FV? I am sure that this haze must build up in FV made of other materials too, such as HDPE, PET, and stainless steel, only those are not see through and you would never be able to tell. 

Needless to say, once I saw the haze in my carboy I immediately remembered the above thread and filled my carboy with a bleach and water solution, soaking it overnight. This morning I rinsed it out and now am waiting for it to dry on the inside, which will take several days. Hopefully the film will be gone. I will report again once it dries. 

I normally use Coopers Ale yeast, or the ale/lager blended yeast. Once in a while I try a Mangrove Jack's yeast. While I rarely have a contaminated batch I have noticed an interesting coincidence: it seems that all of my contaminated batches, which most recently included my SFWH Cluster Bitter, have been fermented with Mangrove Jack's yeast. I have been scratching my head, trying to figure that out. Maybe the contamination is coming from the protein haze in the FV and Mangrove Jack's yeasts are less able to dominate the brew? Just a theory, but one I will soon be putting to the test, as I am planning to use Mangrove Jack's Liberty Bell yeast for my next batch, which is the same yeast I used to ferment my SFWH Cluster Bitter. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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It definitely has its uses in brewing. My FV is probably hazy on the inside, or at least the last one would have been after being used practically non stop for 6 years. My current one has its third or fourth batch in it so still pretty new.

I've used bleach to soak my grain bag on the past, comfortable in the knowledge that even if there was some residual chlorine that ended up in the wort, it would be boiled off anyway. 

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I have fermented around ten brews with MJ yeasts now, none have been contaminated. 

I use a bleach vinegar water solution to sanitise my equipment, which is plastic, and I've had no problems since I adopted it, a couple of years ago now. 

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7 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Maybe the contamination is coming from the protein haze in the FV and Mangrove Jack's yeasts are less able to dominate the brew? Just a theory, but one I will soon be putting to the test, as I am planning to use Mangrove Jack's Liberty Bell yeast for my next batch, which is the same yeast I used to ferment my SFWH Cluster Bitter. 

Guess I won't be putting it to the test, as I have bleached the carboy now; conditions have changed. Duh!

How much volume does a Coopes PET bottle cap hold? 3mL? 5mL? Trying to figure out the dose for a 23L carboy; I suspect I used more than I needed to. Think I will start treating it with bleach after every use. Note that I have been warned by the manufacturer of my generic Oxiclean (mainly sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate) to rinse well before sanitizing with Starsan. They did not explain why but I am assuming it must be dangerous. Given bleach is also an acid, it might be dangerous to mix it with an alkaline cleaner. I will clean the carboy with my usual PBW and generic Oxiclean first, rinse, and then soak with bleach.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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If you mix acid with alkaline it will most likely neutralise it, or at least head in that direction. Either way, if I was doing it I'd probably soak in perc or whatever then do the bleach treatment rather than all at the same time.

I always rinse off perc but it's more because it leaves a slimy residue and I don't really like that. There's nothing dangerous about it though, so I'm not pedantic about it, usually just a couple of rinses in hot water. I do find it comes off much easier than nappy soakers because it's not full of sodium carbonate.

Edited by Otto Von Blotto
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And if alkaline cleaners and Starsan are not effective getting haze out of bottles...

Of course starsan isn't actually designed to clean and remove 'haze' !  😉   But surely it would still kill any bugs present in the hazy residue?  🤔

Anyway, I'm kinda glad you made this discovery though because it does reinforce my past conclusion that simply washing PET's as many do with oxi-cleaners etc is not enough.  It might look like it's doing the job but as you have observed that's not necessarily the case at all.   Since it was first mentioned here I've continued with the "PB2 bleach method" of cleaning my bottles.   I've been reusing the same bleach solution over several times, transferring from bottle to bottle and by the 3rd or 4th use the solution is often looking quite cloudy.  It's obviously scrubbing up something from what otherwise look like clean bottles.  Similarly I also started using a somewhat stronger bleach solution on my fermenter prior to use, and then just to be extra sure it get's a quick spray down with starsan after a very thorough rinse.   

I'm a little paranoid about using bleach generally, largely prompted as a result of the phenolic issues I had back when I was using US05 yeast, though this paranoia is somewhat irrational given there was no bleach actually used then other than what was in my tap water!  Anyway, I think the important thing when using bleach is to rinse and rinse some more!  I can still detect a hint of chlorine in my bleach-cleaned bottles after three rinses so they usually get four or five though it's quite possibly just the chlorine in the tap water I'm smelling at this stage.   🤔

I guess it could then be argued that this kind of approach defeats the whole point and purpose of "no-rinse" products! 😳

  

 

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3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

But surely it would still kill any bugs present in the hazy residue?  🤔

Yeah, I am not sure about that either. My gut tells me it could potentially provide food for bugs. 

3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

I guess it could then be argued that this kind of approach defeats the whole point and purpose of "no-rinse" products! 😳

You mean maybe you can use an oxygen / alkaline cleaner, followed by bleach, and several rinses, then skip the Starsan? That might work. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited by ChristinaS1
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5 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

You mean maybe you can use an oxygen / alkaline cleaner, followed by bleach, and several rinses, then skip the Starsan? That might work. 

 

No, what I was meaning was one of the main benefits of 'no-rinse' was the reduced time and hassle spent cleaning and sanitising,  But by getting involved in bleach-based cleaning and sanitising methods with it's associated need for very thorough rinsing the time-saving benefits of alkaline cleaners and starsan etc are very quickly negated!

Edited by BlackSands
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Better still, rinse thoroughly and allow the equipment to fully dry out before sanitising. That way any residual chlorine will simply evaporate away. 

Not sure about reusing bleach solution, hypochlorite is quite unstable and doesn't really stay in solution for very long. If they're soaked overnight, it's probably mostly evaporated out by the next day. When I tip bleach into the toilet I leave it overnight, usually by the next day the odour is minimal, and completely gone after a flush. 

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3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Not sure about reusing bleach solution, hypochlorite is quite unstable and doesn't really stay in solution for very long. If they're soaked overnight, it's probably mostly evaporated out by the next day. 

The bottles are sealed.  There's nowhere for the chlorine to go....   🤔

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6 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Better still, rinse thoroughly and allow the equipment to fully dry out before sanitising. That way any residual chlorine will simply evaporate away.

Good idea but I am usually itching to get the next one in the FV. 😁

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21 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Yeah, I am not sure about that either. My gut tells me it could potentially provide food for bugs

I have heard the phrase "You can't sanitise dirt" a few times on beer podcasts. 

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5 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I have heard the phrase "You can't sanitise dirt" a few times on beer podcasts. 

Heat can.   😉   Gardeners heat soil for making their own potting mixes though it's probably not a very practical option for the average homebrewer!  

I'd like to see something more 'sciency' with regard to sanitising 'dirt' with starsan.  A gut feeling that it can't isn't convincing enough for me!  However, sanitation aside I'd still aim to have it properly cleaned regardless.

 

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19 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Maybe the contamination is coming from the protein haze in the FV and Mangrove Jack's yeasts are less able to dominate the brew?

I rarely deep clean my FVs and have not had this issue.

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So my carboy (FV) is now dry and, while the haze is much improved, it is still there. I am going to repeat the bleach soak, this time for 24 hours, and will follow up with a scrub. I did not scrub the first time; it is hard to scrub carboys. Suspect that if I use the bleach on a regular basis, scrubbing will not be necessary, but first have to get rid of the old haze build up.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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I use the bleach/vinegar sanitising method. 40ml of each in 20L. Plenty to read on the interweb if you are interested. Creator of Starsan believes it is the way to go. Supposed to be no-rinse but I give it a good rinse anyway. Zero infection since I adopted this and so, so easy and inexpensive. Many worry about using bleach, as I did, but it works for me. Cheers!

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On 6/13/2019 at 6:48 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

How much volume does a Coopers PET bottle cap hold? 3mL? 5mL? Trying to figure out the dose for a 23L carboy....

Answering my own question, not sure if Coopers PET bottle caps are the same size as a standard soft drinks cap but, if so, a capful = 6mL. That works out to 184mL of bleach for 23L, roughly 3/4 (metric) cup.

Cheers,

Christina.

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On 6/13/2019 at 6:53 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

I always rinse off perc but it's more because it leaves a slimy residue and I don't really like that. There's nothing dangerous about it though, so I'm not pedantic about it, usually just a couple of rinses in hot water. I do find it comes off much easier than nappy soakers because it's not full of sodium carbonate.

 

So are you saying cleaning products containing sodium carbonate (nappy soakers and the like) leave more of a slimy residue than straight sodium percarbonate? Interesting. My generic oxygen cleaner contains both, but more sodium percarbonate than sodium carbonate. 

After treating my carboy for a second time with bleach, and soaking for 24 hours this time, it was pretty good, but not 100% sparkling clean. Due to a shipping error on the part of Amazon, I happen to have an unopened package of pure sodium percarbonate in the house. I have never used straight sodium percarbonate and decided to give it a try. I wasn't sure on the dosage, as there were no instructions on the label, so I decided to use two scoops (the same amount I usually do), and I noticed that the bubbling was significantly more vigorous.

Am currently waiting for the carboy to dry, to see if it is now 100%, sparkling clean. Meanwhile, I am giving my bottling bucket (another carboy actually) an overnight bleach soak. It does not have any visible haze, but I want to make sure. 

In future, once my current supplies of PBW and generic oxygen cleaner are gone, I think I will switch to using sodium percarbonate for cleaning my carboy between batches and, every three or four cycles, do a deep cleaning with bleach....Too bad sodium percarbonate is so expensive though. Can't get it locally and the online stuff costs more than the locally available PBW.

Cheers,

Christina.

PS What is the proper dosage of sodium percarbonate anyway, for cleaning 23L fermenters?

Edited by ChristinaS1
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I find they do due to the sodium carbonate. It's also why they create lots of suds. It used to take me a number of rinses to get the shit off, but it's much quicker with perc. 

I'm not sure what the dosage rate is, there probably isn't one really. I usually use 4-5 scoops (the laundry powder scoops) in a 30L fermenter. Sucks about the price, I find it varies here but where I usually get it I buy 25kg sacks, it used to be $78 but last one was dropped to $65.

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:55 AM, Cerveja said:

I use the bleach/vinegar sanitising method. 40ml of each in 20L. Plenty to read on the interweb if you are interested. Creator of Starsan believes it is the way to go. Supposed to be no-rinse but I give it a good rinse anyway. Zero infection since I adopted this and so, so easy and inexpensive. Many worry about using bleach, as I did, but it works for me. Cheers!

Think I heard the same interview as you with the creator of Starsan. But that is more of a sanitizer than a cleaning method, isn't it? 

Cheers,

Christina.

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9 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:
 

.... I think I will switch to using sodium percarbonate for cleaning my carboy between batches and, every three or four cycles, do a deep cleaning with bleach.....

I have batch bottle conditioning at the moment. I can actually see the the residue building up on the walls of the bottles.  It looks kind of powdery but I really do think it's hop oils and it sticks to the bottle walls in patches.  Though these bottles were deep-cleaned with dilute bleach prior to bottling I suspect I will need to nuke these bottles again after use.  🤨

Edited by BlackSands
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3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I usually use 4-5 scoops (the laundry powder scoops) in a 30L fermenter. 

Would you mind measuring how many grams of one of your scoops holds Kelsey? If your laundry scoops are the same size as the laundry scoops here, that would be shite load of perc. Thanks.

And do I understand that Coopers provides envelops of sodium percarbonate with their starter kits? How many grams do they hold?

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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