worry wort Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 im at a loss to work this out. I have had 18 months without a single head retention problem, now i've had 3 brews on the trot where it won't hold a head. Beers great, glass active, but once its poured the head disolves. Cleaned glasses in water only, using new coopers bottles, made no change to normal bottling routine, other than bulk priming the last batch, yet to be tested. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 Probably something in the makeup of the recipes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) I've had the occasional head-less brew, which in my case was kind of ironic given the recipes contained ingredients that were specifically known to enhance head performance! Was a detergent used at any stage? I ask because my daughter had the same issue with her second ever brew recently. After a some questioning it turned out she'd washed her FV with a detergent. Though it was rinsed thoroughly after I suspect that may have been the cause of the problem in her case. Other than that... as Otto suggest, perhaps something in the recipes? Edited June 11, 2019 by BlackSands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worts and all Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I use unscented dishwashing liquid to wash my FV after brewing. Thoroughly rinsed of course,never had a problem with head formation or retention. As Herr VB says, something in the recipes may be offending. As you are no doubt aware,any slight contamination of oil or grease will kill the head immediately. Obviously something common to all 3 brews. The major ingredient is water. No problems possible there? Hope you sort it out. A beer with no head is a disappointing thing indeed. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Hi Worry Wort. 20 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Probably something in the makeup of the recipes. At this point, with little to go on I agree with Kelsey. A look at the full description & methods etc. for the recipes would help. Cheers, Lusty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Beerlust said: Hi Worry Wort. At this point, with little to go on I agree with Kelsey. A look at the full description & methods etc. for the recipes would help. Cheers, Lusty. Hopefully some more info comes to light so that you can disagree with Kelsey and return the world to its natural working order. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) @worry wort, I foresee some Cara discussion. Edited June 12, 2019 by Worthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worry wort Posted June 12, 2019 Author Share Posted June 12, 2019 glasses. i bought a new batch of beer glasses 2months ago. Rinsed them all, but there must still be some sort of store-born residue in them. Reaquired a headmaster schooner glass from the local, used that and the brew poured good. Culprits soaking in detergent now, will rinse and re-rinse and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, worry wort said: Culprits soaking in detergent now, will rinse and re-rinse and see. Definitely rinse them thoroughly. And then rinse them again. And perhaps another time. Residual detergent is a head killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I've been putting mine in the dishwasher. They're mostly nucleated ones I use but the lacing down the glass has improved. In the smooth ones, head retention has improved as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worts and all Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: I've been putting mine in the dishwasher. They're mostly nucleated ones I use but the lacing down the glass has improved. In the smooth ones, head retention has improved as well Dishwasher works fine for me too. Regarding nucleation,at someone’s advice I scratched the bottom of my 3 favourite glass mugs with sandpaper to provide nucleation points. It worked a treat,but within a couple of weeks all 3 emerged from the dishwasher with a crack from top to bottom. I promise not to do it again! Anyone have a clue to the physics going on here? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I had that happen to a few glasses that I scratched as well but not all of them. The ones that did just cracked around the base rather than top to bottom though. I've still got two or three that I mildly scratched which are fine. Maybe the others were just cheaply made or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I'm exclusively a kit and kilo brewer at this point and could never say that I've had thick creamy heads on my beers like you would from a bottle of Coopers or another 'commercial/craft beer'. All the heads seem to be more like a Coca Cola pour: fizzy for a few seconds then nothing. The beer is still carbonated with bubbles rising from the bottom till the draining of the glass. I have tried all manner of cleaning and rinsing with no detergent, detergent, sodium percarbonate etc. so it is not the glasses. In fact I can pour a commercial beer straight into the glass that just held my home brew and it has a perfect head. I have also tried brewing with an addition of steeped cracked Carapils to no avail. I have been told the an addition of wheat malt might do the trick but have yet to find a reliable cost effective source. The only thing that I can think of is that I have never used the sugars that Coopers have suggested on their tins. I have either used 100% LDM or 80% LDM and 20% raw sugar. Maybe they need to be brewed with the Brew Enhancers recommended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worts and all Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 42 minutes ago, DonPolo said: I'm exclusively a kit and kilo brewer at this point and could never say that I've had thick creamy heads on my beers like you would from a bottle of Coopers or another 'commercial/craft beer'. All the heads seem to be more like a Coca Cola pour: fizzy for a few seconds then nothing. The beer is still carbonated with bubbles rising from the bottom till the draining of the glass. I have tried all manner of cleaning and rinsing with no detergent, detergent, sodium percarbonate etc. so it is not the glasses. In fact I can pour a commercial beer straight into the glass that just held my home brew and it has a perfect head. I have also tried brewing with an addition of steeped cracked Carapils to no avail. I have been told the an addition of wheat malt might do the trick but have yet to find a reliable cost effective source. The only thing that I can think of is that I have never used the sugars that Coopers have suggested on their tins. I have either used 100% LDM or 80% LDM and 20% raw sugar. Maybe they need to be brewed with the Brew Enhancers recommended? Like you,I do kit and kilo. I use only LDME,no sugar,and usually a little extra hops. I think I can humbly say the heads on my beers are at least equal to commercial brews. I have had to reduce carbonation priming on my dark ale as the head was always a bit too generous. Why,and why aren’t yours? I wish I knew and could tell you, and feel quite clever about it. I brew with our domestic filtered rain water,which I fondly imagine,on the basis of no evidence whatsoever ,is superior to any other. Maybe the possums I occasionally hear scampering on the roof at night might be a clue. I hope you solve the problem. A generous,creamy head is a beautiful thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellScott Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 18 hours ago, DonPolo said: I'm exclusively a kit and kilo brewer at this point and could never say that I've had thick creamy heads on my beers like you would from a bottle of Coopers or another 'commercial/craft beer'. All the heads seem to be more like a Coca Cola pour: fizzy for a few seconds then nothing. The beer is still carbonated with bubbles rising from the bottom till the draining of the glass. I have tried all manner of cleaning and rinsing with no detergent, detergent, sodium percarbonate etc. so it is not the glasses. In fact I can pour a commercial beer straight into the glass that just held my home brew and it has a perfect head. I have also tried brewing with an addition of steeped cracked Carapils to no avail. I have been told the an addition of wheat malt might do the trick but have yet to find a reliable cost effective source. The only thing that I can think of is that I have never used the sugars that Coopers have suggested on their tins. I have either used 100% LDM or 80% LDM and 20% raw sugar. Maybe they need to be brewed with the Brew Enhancers recommended? The use of malt instead of sugar should help your heads. Brew enhancers should help too, as they contain a mixture of malt, dex and maltodextrin (depending on the Brew Enhancer). If you use too much sugar/dex, it will have a detrimental effect on the head retention as it "thins" out the beer. The correct (nucleated helps) glass is also important. I also don't know if it has anything to do with it, but since using measured amounts of white sugar instead of carb drops, I have also seen my head retention improve. This could have just been coincidence though, as I have no reason why this would be the case, but I have also found the bottles to be quite a bit firmer compared to when using carb drops. Maybe I am putting a little more sugar in now? One other thing I have found (which I also have no scientific proof about) is that if your fridge is set super cold, this seems to have an effect on forming a head. When my fridge was set low, I would pour a beer and hardly any head would form at first, then as I drank it the head would form. Since setting the fridge to about 3C, I haven't had this drama. I have just started kegging (setting up my keezer this weekend), so will be cool to see if force carbing and pouring off a tap makes any difference. This was my last brew, my own recipe of a 150 lashes clone. Used 1.5kg light LME, 1.5kg WME (liquid) and 200g Crystal Grain. This is after about 4 weeks in the bottle. Hope this helps, Mitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Colder temperature makes it more difficult for gas to come out of solution. That's probably the reason. My kegs sit around zero, but because I use room temperature glasses and part of the line and tap are warm at first, it probably comes up at least a couple of degrees by the time the glass is filled. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 19 hours ago, Worts and all said: Like you,I do kit and kilo. I use only LDME,no sugar,and usually a little extra hops. I think I can humbly say the heads on my beers are at least equal to commercial brews. I have had to reduce carbonation priming on my dark ale as the head was always a bit too generous. Why,and why aren’t yours? I wish I knew and could tell you, and feel quite clever about it. I brew with our domestic filtered rain water,which I fondly imagine,on the basis of no evidence whatsoever ,is superior to any other. Maybe the possums I occasionally hear scampering on the roof at night might be a clue. I hope you solve the problem. A generous,creamy head is a beautiful thing. A lot of my brews were just Light Dry Malt + the kit and some extra hops - is LDM the same as LDME or is that the liquid kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I also have switched to sugar rather than carb drops and my fridge is pretty cold. Still a conundrum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 If you are seeking better head retention, you might like to start with asking yourself how you stack up against the points mentioned in our FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worts and all Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 1 hour ago, DonPolo said: A lot of my brews were just Light Dry Malt + the kit and some extra hops - is LDM the same as LDME or is that the liquid kind? LDME= light dry malt extract. Sounds like your brews are similar to mine. I have never used liquid malt. Hope you solve the head problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 8:48 PM, Worthog said: @worry wort, I foresee some Cara discussion. I really think the steeped cara discussion should begin. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I find beers loaded up with a lot of late hops and dry hops tend to hold a better head as well as lace well down the glass. Having said that, I had a glass of my blended beer last night; neither of the beers in it have any real late hops although the red ale was dry hopped with 30g. It held a decent head all the way down the glass and laced pretty well too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Well, I don't even bother too much with nucleated glasses anymore. A properly brewed beer will hold a head in any clean glass from your dishwasher machine, even. Properly brewed beer? You need to have some fresh grain - some grain (say 200g) steeped for 30m@65c - to add to your Coopers based brew recipe. Caramalt, Cararoma, etc will do the job in association with your hop additions. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Worthog said: Well, I don't even bother too much with nucleated glasses anymore. A properly brewed beer will hold a head in any clean glass from your dishwasher machine, even. Properly brewed beer? You need to have some fresh grain - some grain (say 200g) steeped for 30m@65c - to add to your Coopers based brew recipe. Caramalt, Cararoma, etc will do the job in association with your hop additions. Cheers A non nucleated glass. Sitting while I had my dinner. Fine carbonation working with the oils to keep the head and the lacing. Don't be confused that more carbonation means better head retention. Nyet! Your head retention will come directly out of your recipe. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/14/2019 at 6:02 PM, Worthog said: I really think the steeped cara discussion should begin. Cheers I used various amounts of steeped cracked carapils grain to no avail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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