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The English Bitter Thread!


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3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

We don't even have any refined sugar in the house. Wonder what the outcome of inverting raw sugar would be.

Raw sugar was what was traditionally used and what the first recipe in the link calls for. 

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2 hours ago, Ben 10 said:

Inverted or not... just the sugar in a beer. I thought it gave nothing but ABV?
I know the historical Australian beers used it because it was cheaper than malt.

Refined sugar = ABV. 

Caramelized refined sugar = caramel flavour + ABV.

Inverted raw sugar = caramel flavour + Maillard flavour + ABV.

I don't think the Brits would bother inverting raw sugar just to get some ABV. The amounts typically used wouldn't be enough sucrose to stress the yeast or produce cider-y flavours.

Not sure how long the Brits have been adding inverted sugar in beer, but I suppose it is possible that at one time cane sugar imported from the Caribbean might have been more expensive than locally grown barely. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited by ChristinaS1
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Being from a pure sugar base, invert sugar is far more fermentable than converted sugars sourced from barley etc. The darker you push the caramelisation through the Maillard reaction may reduce the fermentability slightly but I can't be sure on that. If it is leaving behind a caramel flavour one must assume something residual is being left behind?

Sugar as a fermentable source starts at 100%. High fermentable forms of barley malts etc. max out around 75-80% yeah?

Cheers,

Lusty.

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I made a golden promise smash recently and I reckon that would actually make a great base for a biscuity EB. Might do that next even

The thing mine have always been missing is that blackcurrant flavour. Any tips on getting this?

Edited by King Ruddager
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44 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

I made a golden promise smash recently and I reckon that would actually make a great base for a biscuity EB. Might do that next even

The thing mine have always been missing is that blackcurrant flavour. Any tips on getting this?

Whilst not blackcurrant, I throw some Special B into mine to give it a bit of a raisin taste.

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I don't know Ben. I am starting to get confused. Without amino acids, you get caramelization only. Pattinson says the impurities in raw sugar play a role. If Maillard reactions happen during the process of making inverted sugar, I am guessing those impurities must include amino acids???

Here are two articles, one talks about caramelization, and the other about Maillard reactions. 

https://www.scienceofcooking.com/caramelization.htm

https://www.scienceofcooking.com/maillard_reaction.htm

The articles give the temperatures at which the processes occur. Fructose caramelizes at 110C/230F, but sucrose and glucose at 160C/320F. Maillard reactions occur at temps of 140C/285F. The thing that jumps out at me is that the instructions for making inverted sugar call for temps of 115C/240F. That is too low for Maillard reactions, or the caramelization of sucrose or glucose, but it fits for the caramelization of fructose. So maybe adding acid causes the dissociation of sucrose to occur at a lower temperature and the process captures the caramelization of the liberated fructose. In other words, maybe there are no products of Maillard reactions in inverted sugar? 🤔

Cheers,

Christina.

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45 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

I made a golden promise smash recently and I reckon that would actually make a great base for a biscuity EB. Might do that next even

The thing mine have always been missing is that blackcurrant flavour. Any tips on getting this?

Doesn't Brambling Cross give blackcurrant? I believe it is often used for bittering in the UK.

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16 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I don't know Ben. I am starting to get confused. Without amino acids, you get caramelization only. Pattinson says the impurities in raw sugar play a role. If Maillard reactions happen during the process of making inverted sugar, I am guessing those impurities must include amino acids???

Here are two articles, one talks about caramelization, and the other about Maillard reactions. 

https://www.scienceofcooking.com/caramelization.htm

https://www.scienceofcooking.com/maillard_reaction.htm

The articles give the temperatures at which the processes occur. Fructose caramelizes at 110C/230F, but sucrose and glucose at 160C/320F. Maillard reactions occur at temps of 140C/285F. The thing that jumps out at me is that the instructions for making inverted sugar call for temps of 115C/240F. That is too low for Maillard reactions, or the caramelization of sucrose or glucose, but it fits for the caramelization of fructose. So maybe adding acid causes the dissociation of sucrose to occur at a lower temperature and the process captures the caramelization of the liberated fructose. In other words, maybe there are no products of Maillard reactions in inverted sugar? 🤔

Cheers,

Christina.

Apparently there is some debate about at what temperature Maillard reactions can occur. Apparently they can happen at lower temperatures, but at a much slower pace. 

https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/29926/what-temperature-does-the-maillard-reaction-occur

However Maillard reactions like a neutral to alkaline pH.  I wonder what the pH of sugar syrup is after you add a bit of lactic acid, lemon juice, or cream of tartar?

Cheers,

Christina.

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23 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Just did a search for "blackcurrant" on the LHBS website and the two results that came back were Bramling Cross and Brewers Gold ...

A very wise man put me on to Bramling Cross in my English Bitters a few years ago and it’s now my go-to...absolutely love the flavours and yes, blackcurrant is there 👍

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9 hours ago, Ben 10 said:

Interesting. I'm still not convinced on the flavour aspect. 

Given you understand Maillard reaction with meats, is it too much of a stretch to believe it can be produced with a pure sugar?

I've been lucky enough by working in the commercial liquor industry over the last 20yrs to sample a lot of different products. The lighter English Ales are particularly interesting in comparison to say the American lighter ales. The lighter EB's in particular seem to carry a lighter body than similar American Amber beers of similar ilk. I think the difference may well be the use of invert sugar(s) by the British that the Americans don't appear to adopt as a general rule as I reckon most of them can't be bothered with the process on a large scale.

The invert sugar still adds a level of caramelisation, but with a lighter end body in the beer due to the increased fermentability. I don't brew a lot of EB's, else this would have been an avenue I would have further explored.

I've actually got a commercial EB I'd like to replicate & had a couple of cracks at doing that a few years back & got close, but not quite close enough. The use of invert sugar may just be what my attempts were missing.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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3 hours ago, SteveL said:

I have also combined Bramling with EKG with very nice results.

I'd like to try that but my LHBS doesn't carry Brambling Cross, or Brewer's Gold, so I will probably end up using Willamette. Love that hop.

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15 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Being from a pure sugar base, invert sugar is far more fermentable than converted sugars sourced from barley etc. The darker you push the caramelisation through the Maillard reaction may reduce the fermentability slightly but I can't be sure on that. If it is leaving behind a caramel flavour one must assume something residual is being left behind?

I read somewhere last night that that is true. I guess it would be for the same reasons that darker crystal malts provide less gravity points than lighter ones. 

Cheers,

Christina.

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On 6/9/2019 at 9:09 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

Have also seen some Bitter recipes floating around using a small percentage of home toasted malt to add a layer of toast flavours / biscuit. I am thinking of toasting malted wheat instead of malted barley. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Just a quick update. Today I toasted two batches of grain, one malted barley (base malt) and the other malted white wheat. I toasted at around 300F for 20 minutes. I have to say that I much preferred the aroma of the barley, which smelled rich and slightly buttery. I can really imagine it in a Bitter. The wheat smelled very dry; sorry, I don't know how else to describe it. For some reason the wheat darkened quite a bit more than the barley had, which I had done first. Maybe the oven had gotten hotter.

I will first let the toasted malts age for a week, I am going to use the barley in an English Bitter of course. I will save the wheat for a Blonde or something. 

Cheers,

Christina.

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:50 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

I'd like to try that but my LHBS doesn't carry Brambling Cross, or Brewer's Gold, so I will probably end up using Willamette. Love that hop.

Was reading Bullion Hop has both the Blackcurrent & Spicy Tones. Never used it however an option if available?

Would Willamette be spicy without providing the red fruit flavours in EB?

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 8:07 PM, SteveL said:

I do...but I am not all grain though.

I have also combined Bramling with EKG with very nice results.

Bloods worth Bottling @SteveL

So pleased with the EKG hop outcome in my latest EB as you suggested. Thanks.

Will have to try this one next. Assume you 50/50 BX & EKG, Boil as before?

I note we can get BX Hops in Oz just need to add postage.

Cheers

 

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54 minutes ago, YeastyBoy said:

Was reading Bullion Hop has both the Blackcurrent & Spicy Tones. Never used it however an option if available?

Would Willamette be spicy without providing the red fruit flavours in EB?

I find Willamette quite floral, and earthy, and slightly spicy and fruity, but not in a citrus-y way. It is not grassy like its parent, Fuggle.

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2 hours ago, YeastyBoy said:

Bloods worth Bottling @SteveL

So pleased with the EKG hop outcome in my latest EB as you suggested. Thanks.

Will have to try this one next. Assume you 50/50 BX & EKG, Boil as before?

I note we can get BX Hops in Oz just need to add postage.

Cheers

 

Glad it turned out well, makes a pretty tasty drop huh!!

And yes, I have combined a 50/50 split of Bramling and EKG...similar schedule, I usually use 45-50 grams all up (15-20g at 15mins/15g at 10m, 15g at 5m)  -it produces a juicy result!

 Cheers!

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FYI, bitterness level of the English Bitter kit is completely out of style / way too high; and ditto for the Real Ale kit. Not sure why Coopers makes them so bitter. If you are going to do a hop boil, I would recommend the Mexican Cervesa kit, or the APA kit as a base. Personally I will be using the Mexican Cervesa kit. 

Cheers,

Christina. 

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