Lack of Hoppiness

[therealthing691]

26 minutes ago, Norris! said:

I used to wait until it was finished but I have noticed some issues with large dry hops. But I would agree with Captain to wait until 1.012 if going for lower. I might try that, instead of 80% completion than dry hop.

 

I did 50% as suggested by the guy at keg king at about 80% fermention and 50% at 1012 and fg will be 9  at a total of 25g/L. Next time I will try at the end see if the difference is a noticeable one 

[therealthing691]

while we are on the subject  do you think by  altering say the base  malt from a American ale malt to say 50/50 ale malt and wheat  would make a lot of difference to the promentness of the hops  just wondering more or less noticeable or no difference

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by therealthing691

[Beerlust]

Hi Gazzala.

9 hours ago, Gazzala said:

Looking for some advice on getting good hop taste / aroma in my pale ales... 

So far none of my pale ale have had any hoppiness (taste or aroma). My latest brew is the Shark Attack XPA (https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/shark-attack-xpa.html) recipe which uses the following hops:

• 12.5g Centennial @ 15mins
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Amarillo @ flameout
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Centennial + 12.5g Amarillo @ dry hop on day 8 (using the chux cloth method - placed on top of the brew)

Due to previously being disappointed with the hoppiness in my brews, I increased the dry hop to 40g Citra + 30g Centennial + 30g Amarillo - that's the only variance from the recipe...

I took a sample yesterday (dry hops had been in 4.5 days) and there is absolutely no hop aroma or taste.

Really not sure where I'm going wrong so any advice would be welcome.

At roughly 4gms per litre for a dry hop you should be experiencing very good aromatics, especially with those particular hops.

My gut feeling has me thinking you may be wrapping them too tight in the chux cloth, & possibly not making sure they are submerged enough in the wort. Hops need room to expand & allow liquid/wort/beer to surround & absorb into them so in a dry hopping situation all the surface area of the hops is exposed & can leach out the aromatic oils into solution.

When you prepare the Chux cloth, make sure it is large enough to leave plenty of room for the hops to expand inside it. They will pretty much double to triple in size once able to absorb liquid. When you add the chux dry hop package into the fermenter lower them into the wort gently & plunge a few times up & down slowly (like a tea bag) without splashing to make sure the cloth & contents are well wet & will likely stay held in the liquid without any sitting above the wort/beer.

After as little as 3-4 days of contact time the aromatic oils will usually have been fully leached into the wort/beer & the chux cloth dry hop package can be removed. When you remove it, give it a really good squeeze back into the beer as the physical hop matter still holds some highly flavoursome & aromatic hop oil character you want in your beer so don't waste it. 

An easy way to tell your dry hops are contained too tightly is when you remove them & open the package or container you had them in, the centre portion of the hops will still be dry that means they never got in contact with the beer at all.

I hope that helps. If it doesn't, start buying your hops from another supplier.

Lusty.

 

 

[therealthing691]

a mable with the hops is a good way to make it sink  I just use a stainless hop cylinder  that sinks cheers

 

[Lab Cat]

27 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

I hope that helps. If it doesn't, start buying your hops from another supplier.

Lusty.

 

Or try a hop sock, they have plenty of room in them. Or just throw he hops in. Cold crashing is best with this method to drop all the hop matter to the bottom before bottling. I prefer the cloth sock.

[Gazzala]

9 hours ago, Beerlust said:

At roughly 4gms per litre for a dry hop you should be experiencing very good aromatics, especially with those particular hops.

My gut feeling has me thinking you may be wrapping them too tight in the chux cloth, & possibly not making sure they are submerged enough in the wort. Hops need room to expand & allow liquid/wort/beer to surround & absorb into them so in a dry hopping situation all the surface area of the hops is exposed & can leach out the aromatic oils into solution.

When you prepare the Chux cloth, make sure it is large enough to leave plenty of room for the hops to expand inside it. They will pretty much double to triple in size once able to absorb liquid. When you add the chux dry hop package into the fermenter lower them into the wort gently & plunge a few times up & down slowly (like a tea bag) without splashing to make sure the cloth & contents are well wet & will likely stay held in the liquid without any sitting above the wort/beer.

After as little as 3-4 days of contact time the aromatic oils will usually have been fully leached into the wort/beer & the chux cloth dry hop package can be removed. When you remove it, give it a really good squeeze back into the beer as the physical hop matter still holds some highly flavoursome & aromatic hop oil character you want in your beer so don't waste it. 

An easy way to tell your dry hops are contained too tightly is when you remove them & open the package or container you had them in, the centre portion of the hops will still be dry that means they never got in contact with the beer at all.

I hope that helps. If it doesn't, start buying your hops from another supplier.

Lusty.

 

Hey Lusty,

Thanks for the detailed advice. Will follow this next time dry-hopping.

You're probably right about wrapping them too tight to be honest. I'm removing them tonight so will check the centre for dryness.

Cheers, Gaz.

 

[Gazzala]

9 hours ago, therealthing691 said:

a mable with the hops is a good way to make it sink  I just use a stainless hop cylinder  that sinks cheers

 

I did wonder about this - I know some home brewers suggest weighing down the hops so they sink to the bottom. I haven't tried it up to now though.

I do have some of the tea strainer thingys - I've used them before and while they do initially sink, they usually float back up quite quickly.

 

[Gazzala]

9 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

Or try a hop sock, they have plenty of room in them. Or just throw he hops in. Cold crashing is best with this method to drop all the hop matter to the bottom before bottling. I prefer the cloth sock.

 

I have one of these too, but at the time of dry hopping the XPA it hadn't been cleaned from a grain steep for another brew...

[Gazzala]

11 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

Depending on how much you dry hop I would wait till it’s just about finished then dry hop to contain all the aroma you have paid good dollars for. EG if your expecting an FG of 1.010 I’d dry hop at 1.012. Fermentation will eat up any oxygen should it enter and save all the precious aroma. 

 

Cheers Captain!! - this is the first time I've seen an explanation of WHY you should dry hop on a particular day of the brew... makes a difference having an understanding of why you're doing something, rather than just following a recipe that says "dry hop on day 4" or "dry hop on day 8" etc...

[Otto Von Blotto]

In terms of timing I usually add dry hops when I take my first FG sample, so usually after 6 or 7 days in there. It stays in until the beer is kegged because the cold crash sinks the tea strainers.  

Edited June 7, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[King Ruddager]

You take multiple gravity samples? I'm lucky if I remember to take an "all clear" measurement on bottling day!

[The Captain!!]

2 hours ago, Gazzala said:

 

Cheers Captain!! - this is the first time I've seen an explanation of WHY you should dry hop on a particular day of the brew... makes a difference having an understanding of why you're doing something, rather than just following a recipe that says "dry hop on day 4" or "dry hop on day 8" etc...

OVB makes sense above. 

I guess the recipes are trying to make it more understandable for a beginner. Once the progression happen then you’ll start to understand not all yeasts behave the same.

Therefore different timings. 

Ofcourse the gravity of your beer, how much yeast has been pitched and temp.All these contribute to how long a batch takes to ferment. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, King Ruddager said:

You take multiple gravity samples? I'm lucky if I remember to take an "all clear" measurement on bottling day!

I usually take one after 3 days (or 5 days for lagers) to see how it's progressing and decide when to raise the temp. Then I take an FG test when I figure it's finished. Sometimes I don't take a second FG test if  it's obviously finished from the first one. But either way I always check it. I like to know what the ABV is and also make sure it's done. The flavour could be affected if it's under attenuated. 

[Gazzala]

45 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I usually take one after 3 days (or 5 days for lagers) to see how it's progressing and decide when to raise the temp.

 

What do you look for when deciding to raise the temp?

[Otto Von Blotto]

The SG to be in a certain range, usually the low 1.020s. If it reads higher then I give it another day before raising the temp. Most of the time it happens around the same time every batch but sometimes I get one that takes a bit longer, like the ale that's being kegged tomorrow. 

I prefer using the SG as a guide rather than sticking to rigid times regardless. 

[Marty_G]

44 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I prefer using the SG as a guide rather than sticking to rigid times regardless. 

I think that is a very important and comes with experience ... brewers need to trust their hydrometer and use their experience to time the increase if they are doing it ... 

[The Captain!!]

1 hour ago, Gazzala said:

 

What do you look for when deciding to raise the temp?

One of the reasons to raise the temp of the FV is as the yeast decide to start going to bed, (towards the end of fermentation) raising the temp rouses them up to finish off the brew cleaner and to the maximum amount that it’ll ferment.

[King Ruddager]

I often raise the temperature a few days before bottling anyway to try and get more of the CO2 out

[The Captain!!]

1 minute ago, King Ruddager said:

I often raise the temperature a few days before bottling anyway to try and get more of the CO2 out

That’s actually a fair point to Ruddy. Especially those that bulk prime. 

[King Ruddager]

I don't suppose anyone happens to know what the optimal temp to raise it to would be?

[Marty_G]

8 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

I don't suppose anyone happens to know what the optimal temp to raise it to would be?

for what purpose,  DA rest, yeast clean up or CO2 release ...  I think it is all quite arbitrary  because if you just let the ferment finish at the optimal ferment temp and then leave it for a couple of days before cold crashing, if you do a CC,  all those would happen anyway would they not ...  surely they would

Edited June 7, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Otto Von Blotto]

If you wanted to expel all the CO2 you'd probably have to warm it up to a point that would kill the yeast. There will always be some left in solution after fermentation but it wasn't something I ever worried about because I primed to taste not specific CO2 volumes. 

[King Ruddager]

Yeah I'm more concerned about simply avoiding over-priming, which I have a bad habit of doing.

[Beerlust]

1 hour ago, The Captain!! said:

One of the reasons to raise the temp of the FV is as the yeast decide to start going to bed, (towards the end of fermentation) raising the temp rouses them up to finish off the brew cleaner and to the maximum amount that it’ll ferment.

I've read that temp rise can be instigated after the first 3 days of active fermentation as this is the period when yeast impart the bulk of their flavour attributes onto the brew. I'm not sure if this time-frame differs between ales & lagers, but even if it did, I would think a lager wouldn't be much longer than a day or so based likely on the observation of the reducing gravity as it ferments. It's probably based on a percentage of SG fermented vs unfermented as to when to flick the switch.

Some yeast strains need no temp rise as they just eat everything in sight regardless of temp, whereas other lazy buggars do need to be "mollycoddled" a bit more by increasing ferment temp or allowing the brew to free-rise at certain educated junctions of the brew to ferment out to expected levels.

Time, problem ferments, the odd failed brew, & experimentation using different strains gives you this firsthand knowledge moving forward. And valuable knowledge it is.

Just my 5 cents,

Lusty.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Beerlust

[Otto Von Blotto]

58 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Yeah I'm more concerned about simply avoiding over-priming, which I have a bad habit of doing.

If you raise the temp to the same temp every time you'll get much more predictable results with priming and carbonation. I understand some styles have different ferment temps, but you're only talking a few degrees which is probably only 10-20g difference in the amount of priming sugar. 

Maybe it's not a case of over priming but unfinished fermentation. You did mention not really checking FG...