fermenting times

[EWildcat7]

27 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

then if you cold crash add another 3 or 4 days minimum until it is bottled

Very interesting that you mention this, especially with the caveat "if." 

I am an American and will be moving back to the States next year (which probably explains why I pay attention to Mr. Beer).  I watch the Mr. Beer forum, which is A LOT like this one.  The people on there absolutely swear by cold crashing being necessary.  It doesn't seem to be as prominent in Australia.  Most Australians I have spoken to say that cold crashing is useless and just adds more time until you bottle.  In fact, I read last night that cold crashing can actually be detrimental as it causes the air in the headspace to contract, potentially creating a vaccuum. 

Thoughts?

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, EWildcat7 said:

the yeast packets that come with the cans don't have a temperature range on them

I know.  But Coopers/ mr beer will put instructions on the tin, to match the included yeast.

[Norris!]

The cold crash is not a needed step but it helps to drop out the floaties and makes the beer clearer. I like to cold crash because part of tasting and drinking is done with the eyes, but some brews like hazy ales I don't even bother because they will never clear and it is the way I want the beer to look.

I have not had any issues with cold crashing except it takes longer to drink.

[Marty_G]

1 minute ago, EWildcat7 said:

Very interesting that you mention this, especially with the caveat "if." 

I am an American and will be moving back to the States next year (which probably explains why I pay attention to Mr. Beer).  I watch the Mr. Beer forum, which is A LOT like this one.  The people on there absolutely swear by cold crashing being necessary.  It doesn't seem to be as prominent in Australia.  Most Australians I have spoken to say that cold crashing is useless and just adds more time until you bottle.  In fact, I read last night that cold crashing can actually be detrimental as it causes the air in the headspace to contract, potentially creating a vaccuum. 

Thoughts?

I would have a guess and say that nearly all the brewers who post here regularly cold crash .... the if was more for if you have temp control ... cold crashing has many benefits ... if you keg and carbonate using CO2 the beer will  carbonate when around 4 degrees  ...  as far clarity goes, cold crashing helps with the precipitation of suspended solids ... personally i advise everyone to cold crash but it is a personal choice ... I suppose those who don't advocate cold crashing like cloudy beers which I don't and possibly like high ABV heavily hopped beers which again I don't  ...  as far as the vacuum goes I think they need to learn some physics particularly around the states of matter as that is preposterous ... 

[EWildcat7]

18 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

Starting the brew at the lower end and finishing at the upper, isn't a bad idea. You keep the brew 'clean' to start with, and raising the temp for a few days makes sure it's finished.

I like this - very easy to follow!  

For those who raise the temperature for a few days at the end of fermentation, do you do gravity checks before or after you raise the temperature?

[Lab Cat]

9 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said:

Thoughts?

I've spent lots time in the past on US based forums in my time, and no matter the topic/hobby, you get lots of characters at the extreme end of the hobby, they are usually the most vocal and postal. They will do all sorts of things they deem necessary, that are nothing more than preferences. 

I was sceptical about CC, but it works if you get fussy about how your beer looks. I do it for a couple of days to reduce sediment.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Some people are paranoid and like to make shit up too. Cold crashing doesn't create a vacuum. The pressure inside the fermenter drops due to the temperature being lowered but that's about it. It will probably draw some air in since fermenters aren't airtight, but I've done it to dozens of batches over the 6 or so years I've used a fridge for temp control and not one has been affected negatively by it. 

That said, it isn't a necessary process but it does help reduce sediment, and it also improves flavour in lagers, although with those it takes a fair bit longer than a few days or a week. Saying it's necessary is a bit misleading but saying it's useless is completely stupid. 

[Norris!]

Marty brought up a good point, if you keg, the cold crash helps absorb the CO2 quicker due to the temp.  So that is a benefit, for whatever it is worth.

[EWildcat7]

3 minutes ago, Norris! said:

Marty brought up a good point, if you keg, the cold crash helps absorb the CO2 quicker due to the temp.  So that is a benefit, for whatever it is worth.

I am not kegging - only PET bottles

[Otto Von Blotto]

In that case it will reduce the amount of sediment in the bottles, if that's something you care about. Anyway, if you're not set up with a fridge currently, don't worry about it. It's not a necessity for good beer unless you're brewing lagers. I am only speaking from my own experience but they are way better when lagered properly. 

[EWildcat7]

7 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Anyway, if you're not set up with a fridge currently, don't worry about it.

I do have a fridge with a temperature controller

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sweet. Well if you like you can give it a go. All you have to do is drop the temp down as close to zero as your fridge will go. Do this at the point that you would normally bottle the beer. Leave it for 4-5 days or a week, then bottle it. It can be bottled cold and allowed to warm up in the bottles. 

[EWildcat7]

For those who raise the temperature for a few days at the end of fermentation, do you do gravity checks before or after you raise the temperature?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Both. Before to decide when to raise the temperature and after to confirm FG. 

The before reading I do 3 days after pitching yeast. So if I pitch on a Monday I take a reading on the Thursday. Sometimes I'll raise the temp then, sometimes I'll give it another day if the SG isn't low enough yet. I then leave the hydrometer in the sample sitting on the bar so I can watch it drop and stabilise for a rough idea of the FG. 

The after reading I do a few days later, usually 7 or 8 days since pitching. Then another 2 days after that to confirm FG.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

I do similar but slightly different. Probably because i use an airlock. And while i don't rely on it it is a good indicator 95% of the time.

I will do a reading on the 1st day before i pitch yeast for the OG.

Reading when the vigourous bubbling dies down. This is when i usually raise the temp a couple of degrees or if its good weather just take it out and leave it in the ambient 

Reading when the airlock equalises. 9 times out of 10 she is done at this stage

Reading 4 or 5 days later. If its the same then off to the cold crash she goes.

[Marty_G]

47 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said:

For those who raise the temperature for a few days at the end of fermentation, do you do gravity checks before or after you raise the temperature?

This is what i was saying about about creating a regime for brewing ... 

Usually Ales: 

Ferment temp: 18-22  (I usually do ales at 19 as I prefer my ferment to be a bit slower ... as i find it having a cleaner taste profile but others will have a different view)

Duration: usually finished in 6 or 7 days  I don't increase the temp of Ales it is a personal choice but many do when the SG is around 1020ish about day 3ish

Cold Crash: 3-4 days (many do it as close to zero and for longer  but I do it at 3 for 3 days may be a day shorter or longer depending of when I have time to bottle) 

 

Lagers: Now these are a bit more complex as this is a process not a type of beer ...

Ferment temp depends on the yeast but usually around 10-12 degrees until it hit around 1020 which is around the 6ish day then increased to 18 until finished or a couple of days then dropped back to 10-12 to finsh it

 Duration: if temp is increased takes about 10 days min 

Cold Crash the same

Lagering:  after bottling the beer needs to be a room temp for 14 days so it carbonates then stored in a dark place for a minimum of 2 months but longer the better ...  lagering is the process that determines that it is a lager as well as the yeast and ferment temp ... those that do lots of lager like OBV will recommend lagering at very cold temp creates better beer ... 

 

I am sorry if you alrready had your head around all of this .... to be honest brewing is pretty simple and very forgiving .... I have found it very hard to make bad beer and I, like most of us,  have made some pretty rookie errors when I 1st started  ...  most notably fermenting without temp control when it was way way to bloody hot ... get some really funky flavour doing that... 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Lagering:  after bottling the beer needs to be a room temp for 14 days so it carbonates

Hey Marty, I was wondering about this step.  I did a lager in early May.  Bottled around 19 May and put them straight into the garage.  First week was around 13-20°C.  Since then around 8-13°C.  I mostly bottle in glass, but also do a few PET's for a squeeze carbonation testing.  This brew has mixed results.  2 of the PET's have virtually no firmness, whereas the other 5 are hard as expected.

Because these results were slow coming on, and my next brew was another lager (wort tipped straight onto the yeast cake of the above brew), when I bottled the second lager I kept the bottles inside around 20°C.  That was 5 days ago.  The PET's in the second batch are still firming up, but they are much more consistent than the first batch.  The plan is to more this second batch of bottles out to the garage as you describe above, after two weeks inside.

Given these used the same lager yeast (Saflager W-34/70) what differences could I expect because of the different secondary fermentation temperatures?

Cheers Shamus

[Otto Von Blotto]

Probably not much. I used to carbonate bottled lagers at whatever temperature the storage cupboard was. They always tasted the same to me. 

[Marty_G]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

First week was around 13-20°C.  Since then around 8-13°C.  I

 when I bottled the second lager I kept the bottles inside around 20°C.  That was 5 days ago.  The PET's in the second batch are still firming up, but they are much more c

Given these used the same lager yeast (Saflager W-34/70) what differences could I expect because of the different secondary fermentation temperatures?

Cheers Shamus

I know that Kelsey said not much and I assume he is right on the money ... the thing with lagering is if you do it a ambient for months then the carbonation will develop over time if the temp is in the low range of the yeasts ferment temp but if you do it the way some suggest ambient for 2 weeks then in the fridge  you would have problems if in bottles and the ambient was too low for those 2 weeks ... the low temp lagering is great if you are using kegs and CO2 to carbonate as it is not temp reliant like bottle secondary carbonisation  ...  anyway not that i am an expert but that is what i have picked up from the community ... bottle secondary is temp reliant as it has to be above the minimum temp for the yeast's fermentation ... keg carbonation isn't unless you are looking for the optimum temp for keg CO2 carbonisation which is around 4 degrees ...  gee i hope that makes sense ....  and sorry if I over explain it is the school teacher in me ... 

Edited June 7, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Lab Cat]

21 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

  gee i hope that makes sense ....  and sorry if I over explain it is the school teacher in me ... 

Punctuation and paragraphs would help. Walls of text are not readable, I do hope you aren't actually a school teacher.

We all come here to help and learn, but it's also courteous to make what you write easy to read.

[Hairy]

5 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

Punctuation and paragraphs would help. Walls of text are not readable, I do hope you aren't actually a school teacher.

We all come here to help and learn, but it's also courteous to make what you write easy to read.

Courtesy goes both ways.

[Marty_G]

20 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

Punctuation and paragraphs would help. Walls of text are not readable, I do hope you aren't actually a school teacher.

We all come here to help and learn, but it's also courteous to make what you write easy to read.

Lab rat it is punctuated ... see these ... that is punctuation it signifies moving from 1 thought to another ... and yes I taught Maths for nearly a decade and worked at the DPI as an entomologist and have been on the academic staff of QUT and the University of the Sunshine Coast and have published scientific papers ... sorry but I very rarely write in prose ...  if I could write everything in dot point i would ... 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Otto Von Blotto]

Lager yeast can work as low as 3-4 degrees, so theoretically they would carbonate in the fridge given enough time. I don't know if they still do it but Urquell fermented their pilsner at 4 degrees during the initial stages. Obviously a different scenario to a bottle though. 

[Marty_G]

Wow Kelsey you sure are a bottomless pit of info .... thanks for that ... 

[Norris!]

28 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Wow Kelsey you sure are a bottomless pit of info .... thanks for that ... 

Second that. Thank you Kelsey for your contributions.

Shout out to everyone else, also, who contribute!  It has been said several times, but this site offers a wealth of information. Except for what I say, please disregard my comments, in your own best interests.