fermenting times

[EWildcat7]

I have noticed that the Mr. Beer recipes say to ferment the beer for 3 weeks for bottling.  But the Coopers recipes say to use a hydrometer to do gravity tests after 7-10 days and, if stable over 2 days, then to bottle.  Is this simply a case of Mr. Beer trying to make things simpler and not bother with using a hydrometer?  Or is there a difference in the products?

[Otto Von Blotto]

No idea, but I don't see why they'd be different in practice. I'd just do the SG tests after 7 days or so and a couple of days later like normal. 

[EWildcat7]

I posted the same question on a Mr. Beer forum and got this as a response:

"We 3 weeks fermenting, ideally with wort temp of around 65, followed by 4 weeks in bottles carbonating and conditioning at 70 or higher.  Then 3 days in the fridge for what you are ready to drink, leaving the rest to continue to condition.

You could go 14 days, then take hydrometer readings 24 hours apart.  The full 21 days ensures the yeast has time to cleanup, which you cannot measure with a hydrometer."

 

So, now I am confused as to what to do.....

[Otto Von Blotto]

Just do what you normally do. An ale shouldn't take any longer than 7 days to reach FG. Add a few days for yeast cleanup and you can have it bottled after 11-12 days, 2-3 weeks to carbonate as normal. 

[Instigator]

You asked a really good question, and one I was curious about myself. I think the how to brew website probably summarises the answer well:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/fermentation/some-misconceptions

It has been common for brewing texts to over-emphasize the "lagtime" - the period of time after pitching the yeast before the foamy head appeared in the fermentor. This lagtime was the benchmark that everyone would use to gage the health of their yeast and the vigor of the fermentation. While it is a notable indicator, the lagtime accounts for a combination of pre-fermentation processes that have a great deal to do with the quality of the total fermentation, but that individually are not well represented by time.

A very short lagtime, for example, does not guarantee an exemplary fermentation and an outstanding beer. A short lagtime only means that initial conditions were favorable for growth and metabolism. It says nothing about the total amount of nutrients in the wort or how the rest of the fermentation will progress.

The latter stages of fermentation may also appear to finish more quickly when in fact the process was not super-efficient, but rather, incomplete. The point is that speed does not necessarily correlate with quality. Of course, under optimal conditions a fermentation would be more efficient and thus take less time. But it is better to pay attention to the fermentation conditions and getting the process right, rather than to a rigid time schedule.

[Otto Von Blotto]

And that's exactly why I do what I do. Build yeast starters, use oxygen at pitching time, and time when to do certain things like raising temperature on the SG rather than a set number of days*. The wort itself should already be nutritious enough being all malt. It results in consistent healthy fermentation every batch as well as predictability as to how long each phase will take. Occasionally I deviate from my usual process and things change a bit, like this current batch where I left the yeast starter chilled longer than usual before pitching and didn't use oxygen at the beginning. This fermentation has taken longer than usual and since those are the only two variables it's reasonable to assume they're the cause of it.

*The predictability resulting from my process generally means that such things are always done after the same amount of time each batch but it's still based on SG readings. The current batch I delayed the temp rise because the SG wasn't as low as normal after 3 days when I take progress samples. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[EWildcat7]

I am even more confused than I was before......I just don't understand why Mr. Beer and Coopers give different instructions

Is there any harm in splitting the difference?  I was thinking of taking a gravity reading after 2 weeks and then another 2 days later.  That would be close to 2 and a half weeks of fermenting.

Edited June 1, 2019 by EWildcat7

[Otto Von Blotto]

This is one instance where I would just ignore the instructions. Just take a reading after 7 and 9 days. They should be the same by then. Then give it another 2-3 days and get it bottled. There's no benefit or point in leaving it any longer, and I really can't make it any simpler than that. 

[Beer Baron]

I have a rule for ales. 

6 days at 18 degrees.

3 days at 21 degrees. 

3 days at 2 degrees. 

The only time I check my gravity reading is just before the cold crash. I trust the yeast and my process to know that 99.9% of the time things will work out fine. 

Beer Baron

[Detroit D]

I use a very similar for my pale ales

4 days at 18 degrees - then dry hop

3 days at 21 degrees, check gravity then in the bottle. I don't do the cold crash.

I just checked my APA, 1kg LDM and kit yeast and is at 1009 on day 4

[BlackSands]

I don't have a 'rule'.  Instead, I have a hydrometer.   

[Otto Von Blotto]

23 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

I don't have a 'rule'.  Instead, I have a hydrometer.   

Same. Usually the timing of different steps is the same but as I explained above, it's predictable. I still like to check to make sure though. 

[Lab Cat]

On 6/1/2019 at 2:50 PM, EWildcat7 said:

I am even more confused than I was before......

As Troy McClure said... "There's no confusion here, just good science." Hydrometer tells the story.

When its done, it's done. No point it sitting there another week or so doing nothing, when it could be bottled.

[EWildcat7]

On 6/1/2019 at 9:22 PM, Beer Baron said:

I have a rule for ales. 

6 days at 18 degrees.

3 days at 21 degrees. 

3 days at 2 degrees. 

The only time I check my gravity reading is just before the cold crash. I trust the yeast and my process to know that 99.9% of the time things will work out fine. 

Beer Baron

When you say "ales," that is based on the type of yeast used and not the style of beer, right?  For example, the next batch I make will be a porter, but uses the Lallemand Nottingham ale yeast.  It says to ferment between 18 and 22 degrees, so if my assumption is correct, I can follow your steps, right?

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

14 hours ago, BlackSands said:

I don't have a 'rule'.  Instead, I have a hydrometer.   

Spot on

[Lab Cat]

22 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said:

When you say "ales," that is based on the type of yeast used and not the style of beer, right?  For example, the next batch I make will be a porter, but uses the Lallemand Nottingham ale yeast.  It says to ferment between 18 and 22 degrees, so if my assumption is correct, I can follow your steps, right?

I always look at what the recommended temp range is on the yeast packet. Most are probably going to be 18-22c. Starting the brew at the lower end and finishing at the upper, isn't a bad idea. You keep the brew 'clean' to start with, and raising the temp for a few days makes sure it's finished.

The hydrometer tells you when its done, not the days. BB doesn't bother with checks, as he's trusting the yeast process. I prefer to know, as some of my brews have been very variable in brew time.

[RDT2]

2 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

I always look at what the recommended temp range is on the yeast packet. Most are probably going to be 18-22c. Starting the brew at the lower end and finishing at the upper, isn't a bad idea. You keep the brew 'clean' to start with, and raising the temp for a few days makes sure it's finished.

The hydrometer tells you when its done, not the days. BB doesn't bother with checks, as he's trusting the yeast process. I prefer to know, as some of my brews have been very variable in brew time.

You beat me to it but probably said it better

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

But the fermentation times depend on what you want as well. For example if making a Belgian beer im deliberately underpitching to stress the yeast and create the desired flavours. It does take longer and so the the hydro is the only guide. 

[Marty_G]

to me they are not instructions that are steadfast rather they are more guidelines and are for the inexperienced ...  there are too many variables that would affect fermentation times ... I am like most contributors and have a regime I follow for the way I brew ... for example the yeast I use,  the fermentables and the hop and grain additions  ...  so I use  a hydrometre and a temperature regime one for ales and one for lagers  ...  simple as that ... 

[EWildcat7]

16 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

I always look at what the recommended temp range is on the yeast packet.

the yeast packets that come with the cans don't have a temperature range on them

[EWildcat7]

4 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

to me they are not instructions that are steadfast rather they are more guidelines and are for the inexperienced

EXACTLY!!!  I am inexperienced, so i need instructions to follow.  I don't know enough about what I am doing to be able to modify recipes

[Otto Von Blotto]

The kit itself has a temperature range on it though. Generally speaking ales are best done at 18-20 degrees. Keep it there and you'll get a good beer, raise it a few degrees near the end if you like. Check FG after 7 days and again 2 days later. If these two readings are the same then it's finished. This is what I've been doing for years and it's never failed me. 

If you follow that process you'll be fine. It isn't complicated and it doesn't need to be made complicated. 

[Marty_G]

15 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said:

EXACTLY!!!  I am inexperienced, so i need instructions to follow.  I don't know enough about what I am doing to be able to modify recipes

Ok if you want recipes to play with which are quite easy go to the cooper recipe spreadsheet thread and down load the exl file .... that should help ...  but as many have said rely on the hydrometre ... 

[EWildcat7]

3 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Ok if you want recipes to play with which are quite easy go to the cooper recipe spreadsheet thread and down load the exl file .... that should help ...  but as many have said rely on the hydrometre ... 

This whole thread started because I tried to make a recipe from the Mr. Beer site and was confused about the difference in instructions between Mr. Beer and Coopers (even though Coopers owns Mr. Beer).  So, since I feel like I have to follow the instructions, I got confused when I saw things that were so vastly different.

Because of a few recent sales on Mr. Beer and Coopers, I have enough supplies for my next 5 or 6 beers, which includes recipes from both companies.  Based on what some here have posted, I can look a little more critically at the Mr. Beer recipes, but will likely still need some help from folks on here when it comes time to make them.

This batch I just bottled yesterday was a lesson learned/experiment....

[Marty_G]

3 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said:

This whole thread started because I tried to make a recipe from the Mr. Beer site and was confused about the difference in instructions between Mr. Beer and Coopers (even though Coopers owns Mr. Beer).  So, since I feel like I have to follow the instructions, I got confused when I saw things that were so vastly different.

Because of a few recent sales on Mr. Beer and Coopers, I have enough supplies for my next 5 or 6 beers, which includes recipes from both companies.  Based on what some here have posted, I can look a little more critically at the Mr. Beer recipes, but will likely still need some help from folks on here when it comes time to make them.

This batch I just bottled yesterday was a lesson learned/experiment....

We are here to help .... the thing is follow the recipe when making/mixing the brew .... when fermenting trust the hydro it is the only thing that will tell you when it is finished .... and if you want to know the ABV you will need the OG and FG to calculate it anyway  ... once you get experience you will know Ales should take about a weekish and lager should take about a week and a halfish ... then if you cold crash add another 3 or 4 days minimum until it is bottled ...