Hops and BIAB

[Olemate]

I read on another forum that when using the "no-chill" method I need to alter my hop addition schedule ie. adding them later rather than according to the recipe. Is this really necessary? I would also like to learn why.

Cheers

[The Captain!!]

I don’t bother mate. I put my bittering hop in and then steep at flameout. Remove hops.

Cube hop at 82. 

No need to adjust 

If I’m doing a 15min boil, I use a hop spider and remove spider afterwards

Edited May 29, 2019 by The Captain!!

[Hairy]

30 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

I don’t bother mate. I put my bittering hop in and then steep at flameout. Remove hops.

Cube hop at 82. 

No need to adjust 

If I’m doing a 15min boil, I use a hop spider and remove spider afterwards

Is that because you have already adjusted it?

If you took a standard recipe with additions at say 60, 30, 10 & 0 and didn't change it for 'no chill' then you would end up with a beer that may be significantly more bitter.

[Olemate]

I'm trying to understand why this happens Hairy. If all of the added hops are retained in a bag/spider how do they continue to influence the wort?

How do I go about adjusting the hop schedule to suite? I'm only a raw newbie to all grain, in fact, while I've built my keggle I'm trying to understand what I need to do and why.

Cheers

 

[The Captain!!]

33 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Is that because you have already adjusted it?

If you took a standard recipe with additions at say 60, 30, 10 & 0 and didn't change it for 'no chill' then you would end up with a beer that may be significantly more bitter.

If you allow the hops to sit in the wort (commando) than yes. I use a hop spider and it is removed from the wort after flameout. 

60 min additions etc go in commando due to the small amount and you really don’t get too much more out of those additions. 

Ive brewed beers that have had that standard additions and this is how I over come this issue. 

[Olemate]

So, you are saying that the necessity only arises if you allow hop matter to be carried into the cube yeah?

[Hairy]

16 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

If you allow the hops to sit in the wort (commando) than yes. I use a hop spider and it is removed from the wort after flameout. 

60 min additions etc go in commando due to the small amount and you really don’t get too much more out of those additions. 

Ive brewed beers that have had that standard additions and this is how I over come this issue. 

Removing the vegetal matter doesn't stop the isomerisation of alpha acids. Once the acids have been released into the wort then they will continue to increase the bitterness the longer the wort is held at the isomerisation temps. I'm not sure how long they need to be in contact with the wort to release all the acids though.

I use a hop spider and remove the hops after flameout but I found I needed to adjust my hopping by around 15 minutes.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Hairy

[The Captain!!]

19 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Removing the vegetal matter doesn't stop the isomerisation of alpha acids. Once the acids have been released into the wort then they will continue to increase the bitterness the longer the wort is held at the isomerisation temps. I'm not sure how long they need to be in contact with the wort to release all the acids though.

I use a hop spider and remove the hops after flameout but I found I needed to adjust my hopping by around 15 minutes.

Yeah completely agree however have found no real difference to the bitterness levels by doing so. Maybe the few recipes that I did weren’t overly big on the hopping rates. That could explain my findings. 

I guess it could be why I’ve turned to the way I do with only bittering and flameout hops. I rarely do boil hops anymore. 

 

[The Captain!!]

30 minutes ago, Olemate said:

So, you are saying that the necessity only arises if you allow hop matter to be carried into the cube yeah?

Like Hairy has said, once the oils have been released into the wort they will continue to get more bitter until the wort is under 80c. 

But it will get more bitter if you leave the hop matter in the wort above 80c. It’ll release more bitter stuff other than just alpha acids

[Olemate]

In my back yard I have a 34.5KL pool. If I transfer to cube, trolley around the back and into the pool how would that be? It's brass monkeys in there at the moment.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I use my pool for quicker chilling of cubes but I allow them to sit hot for about 10 minutes first. I'll have to do a few more hoppy ales using the pool chilling to really get an idea of how much difference it makes.

I think it's best to just work it out to suit your own tastes. I've done other recipes without changing anything and they turned out really well, the SNPA clone was probably the best of them and actually what led me to my current 10 minutes and flameout additions for pale ales along with a small bittering or FWH addition. I've since incorporated cube hops as well with good effect. 

[Olemate]

Thanks Kelsey, once I decant to cube and get it around the back would be a good 10-15 minutes anyway, so worth a try. I'm just trying to keep things a simple as possible as a newbie. I appreciate that there are many refinements I can learn to make as I progress, but I don't want to discourage myself by doing something basically wrong.

Also, I have about 2 litres of "wasted" volume below my tap. Does this need to be compensated for somehow? I have used the water calculator from the Biabbrewer website, but it doesn't mention this.

https://biabbrewing.com/brew-day-prep/biab-calculators-and-software/

[The Captain!!]

32 minutes ago, Olemate said:

Also, I have about 2 litres of "wasted" volume below my tap. Does this need to be compensated for somehow? I have used the water calculator from the Biabbrewer website, but it doesn't mention this.

https://biabbrewing.com/brew-day-prep/biab-calculators-and-software/

That is called deadspace. 2 litres is a fair bit. 

I normally tilt the urn forward to reduce this deadspace. Can you do that somehow?

[Olemate]

 Thanks for your patience Captain! It's a 50l keg, it has a dish bottom. I had to keep the tap up a bit to avoid the curvature leading down into that dish. Towards the end of decanting I could certainly wedge up the back of the keg to get more out, or maybe even put some sort of extension, not sure how, on the back of the ball valve leading down into the dish but, obviously, don't want to suck too much of the trub into the cube either.

Cheers

[porschemad911]

7 minutes ago, Olemate said:

some sort of extension

A pick up tube / dip tube is what you're after there. 

Something like this: https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/304-stainless-steel-kettle-converter-pickup-tube-304-stainless-internal-threaded-tube

Cheers, 

John 

Edited May 29, 2019 by porschemad911

[Olemate]

You're right John but my ball valve is an odd one. From Keg Land, supposedly a Robobrew replacement. It has what looks like an hexagonal inside instead of a smooth round bore that you would expect. All is not lost, I'll chew on it for a while, there's bound to be a way. I'll contact Keg Land and see what they have to offer.

Cheers

[The Captain!!]

26 minutes ago, porschemad911 said:

A pick up tube / dip tube is what you're after there. 

Something like this: https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/304-stainless-steel-kettle-converter-pickup-tube-304-stainless-internal-threaded-tube

Cheers, 

John 

That’s a bloody good idea John. I’ll whack that idea in my sky rocket. 

As for you Olemate, there’s always going to be some deadspace and it’s a little bit of waste having that much though. Just try and reduce the deadspace as much as possible 

[Otto Von Blotto]

There's probably about 2 litres deadspace under the valve outlet in crown urns as well, but I haven't measured it. I don't really care anyway, I just tilt the urn gently as the wort gets low and get a bit extra that way. 

I have wanted to get or make an elbow pickup tube for it but just haven't got around to it yet. 

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

I got a stainless elbow and a gland/pressure fitting from hoppy days for mine. Just got to put a few inches of 1/2inch copper on the end of that and bend it around to run around the inside of the kettle near the bottom. That should get most of it out, without upsetting the rubbish once I whirlpool.

[The Captain!!]

Yeah there probably is that amount of deadspace. Like I said though, nice to reduce it as much as possible 

[Instigator]

You could also displace the deadspace by putting something solid in the bottom.

[joolbag]

Hey Captain I am brewing a beer with a hell of a lot of hopstand hops so am planning to cube hop this. Given the amount, I want to transfer at 82C and not extract any more bitterness in the cube.

 

how and how long do you cool your kettle to get the wort to 82C before transferring? Letting my kettle sit for 30min post flameout to allow trub to settle doesn’t drop it low enough. I’m thinking of dunking the entire pot and all into a big tub of water

[Otto Von Blotto]

The transfer itself drops it another few degrees as well. You could probably let it drop to 85/86 in the kettle then transfer it during which it will drop down further to about 81/82 degrees. 

However, I'm only basing that off the one time I measured the temp of the wort after a 20 minute stand and after transferring to the cube. It was about a 4 degree difference, dropping from 92 to 88. 

I don't find cube hops really add much noticeable bitterness anyway. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[The Captain!!]

It depends on how warm the temp is outside, in the colder months it takes about 30 minutes. In summer about 40. 

I transfer at 82. As when I do a large cube hop that I don’t want to extract bitterness it’ll only be at 80-81 for a few minutes. 

I wouldn’t want to move a pot around with boiled wort in it. I think that’s just asking for trouble. Or third degree burns. 

I don’t actively cool my urn, it just cools quick enough outside in my garage 

[Worthog]

On 5/29/2019 at 4:06 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

.....I think it's best to just work it out to suit your own tastes. I've done other recipes without changing anything and they turned out really well, the SNPA clone was probably the best of them and actually what led me to my current 10 minutes and flameout additions for pale ales along with a small bittering or FWH addition. I've since incorporated cube hops as well with good effect. 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 7:15 AM, Otto Von Blotto said:

...I don't find cube hops really add much noticeable bitterness anyway. 

I currently biab and no-chill cube. I would like to try cube hopping. Can people please let me know how and if it compares to dry hopping?

My current process is;

• Small FWH for bittering
• Either 8m or 5m addition
• Addition at either FO, or 15m later at WP.

By the time I whirlpool my temp is around 88c. By the time I cube, the temp is around 82c, so I would siphon into cube to below 80c, which I'd imagine would stop any cube hop addition from bittering.

Typically the cube is transferred to the FV for brewing the next day.

So typically how much hop would you add to cube, and what flavour/aroma affects are you getting?

Cheers