Chubby Cherub

[Mikes15]

Tried making this 5yrs ago when our first child was due to be born, it ended up being poured down the drain, dont know why but heh ho, at least the boys turning out ok,,,

Put it down last week but not 100% the coopers recipe, I used black rock 1.7kg extra light & amber instead of the coopers stuff (not that cheap or always available in Nz) as such I dropped the 500g of LDM but boosted it up with 200g of sugar to bump the OG up a touch, planned was 1047, actual was 1052.

Also couldnt get the BRY-97 so went with 15g of Morgans APA yeast, brewing at 18, up to 21 now its 3 days in, yeast says 17-24'C

Followed the same boil schedule, except I dropped on time rather than the "About" listed for the timings

Will be dry hopping with both Chinook & Cascade since I had to buy a min 50g of each so may as well use it.

 

Interesting thing is when I ran the recipe through the Brewers Friend Calc I use it came out with ABU of 4.7 vs the recipes 5.4% & the IBU is 57.9 (tinseth) vs coopers planned 38, do Coopers use Ranger for IBU, in which case its 34 vs 38 (coopers).

hopefully this one avoids the drain pipe, well before bodily filtration that is

Edited May 25, 2019 by Mikes15

[Beerlust]

Hi Mike.

1 hour ago, Mikes15 said:

...Put it down last week but not 100% the coopers recipe, I used black rock 1.7kg extra light & amber instead of the coopers stuff (not that cheap or always available in Nz) as such I dropped the 500g of LDM but boosted it up with 200g of sugar to bump the OG up a touch, planned was 1047, actual was 1052....

...Interesting thing is when I ran the recipe through the Brewers Friend Calc I use it came out with ABU of 4.7 vs the recipes 5.4% & the IBU is 57.9 (tinseth) vs coopers planned 38, do Coopers use Ranger for IBU, in which case its 34 vs 38 (coopers).

The Brewers Calc would not take into consideration secondary fermentation (carbonation) in the bottle that adds approx. 0.5% ABV. Besides, you've openly admitted you've changed the recipe from the one Coopers outline, so yes I would expect there to be some difference. 

Don't worry too much about the IBU as there is likely some difference in the alpha levels of your Brewing calc vs those Coopers used in their recipe calculation.

Trust in the method as it's a ripping extract beer (one of my favs in the DIY database), & for best results try to adhere to the recipes as close as possible if you wish to enjoy the beer as it is intended by the Coopers DIY team.

Hopefully this one turns out (as nice as I know it is) for you this time around. 

Lusty.

[Instigator]

I really have to brew this at some stage. Love the commercial cherubs from the west side brewery. Good luck with it!

[Mikes15]

11 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Don't worry too much about the IBU as there is likely some difference in the alpha levels of your Brewing calc vs those Coopers used in their recipe calculation.

Lusty.

As I venture further into the world of extract it seems IBU's are the fundamental key to how a beer will turn out but at the same time the often the BJCP guides are quite wide, 30-45 in this case so I can understand why its also important not to get to hung up on them.

I guess my point was it would surely take more than a few % points difference to account for such a differing IBU, hence wondering if coopers where stating Ranger?

Ive really enjoyed all the coopers brews, got a raspberry wheat beer lined up next but its VERY frustrating not being able to get a lot of the bits locally, I had to import a can of devils half ruby from Oz once costing '$39 delivered, the Blackbeard Schwartzbier was well worth it though!

[Beerlust]

4 hours ago, Mikes15 said:

As I venture further into the world of extract it seems IBU's are the fundamental key to how a beer will turn out but at the same time the often the BJCP guides are quite wide, 30-45 in this case so I can understand why its also important not to get to hung up on them.

When I first brewed the Chubby Cherub recipe my IBU number came out at 42.3 in IanH's spreadsheet given the alpha levels of the hops I used. I don't think I'd done much in the way of short boiling for bitterness at that time & was a little concerned about how bitter the beer might be given I had been brewing beers at most around the low 30's at the time. I was open-minded to the idea of short boiling & trusted in the process. It made a lovely beer.

I learned a lot from making that beer. Most notably how you can creep higher with your final IBU count when short boiling without worrying about excessive bitterness being created. I think that was the brew that had me stop worrying so much about my final IBU number.

4 hours ago, Mikes15 said:

I guess my point was it would surely take more than a few % points difference to account for such a differing IBU, hence wondering if coopers where stating Ranger?

I'm guessing you mean "Rager"? I don't know of anyone that still measures IBU by the Rager formula.

4 hours ago, Mikes15 said:

Ive really enjoyed all the coopers brews, got a raspberry wheat beer lined up next but its VERY frustrating not being able to get a lot of the bits locally, I had to import a can of devils half ruby from Oz once costing '$39 delivered, the Blackbeard Schwartzbier was well worth it though!

Maybe build up two to three recipes you'd like to brew & do a bulk purchase from the online store when Coopers are offering free shipping? I admit I don't know if that still applies to orders placed outside of OZ though. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[PB2]

We supplied a sample of the finished beer to our laboratory.  They measured the Bitterness Level directly. 

[porschemad911]

There you have it, pre-fermentation IBU estimate vs lab analysis of the finished beer. Expect around 30% loss, 38 / 0.7 = 54.3.

Cheers, 

John 

[Mikes15]

14 hours ago, porschemad911 said:

There you have it, pre-fermentation IBU estimate vs lab analysis of the finished beer. Expect around 30% loss, 38 / 0.7 = 54.3.

Cheers, 

John 

Increasing to around 45% on the 3rd beer analyzed & "bitterness, what bitterness,,," by the time the sun goes down,,,,

[porschemad911]

Well yes! The Coopers FAQ says 10 - 30% loss during fermentation, but a recent study done at Ballast Point (fascinating interview on Brew Strong) shows a minimum of 30% loss and up to 50% loss (in the beers they're making anyway). I would like to get a hold of his revised IBU formula and implement in my spreadsheet. 

Also - they have a beer with 40 IBU all from the dry hop, no kettle or whirlpool additions. 

Cheers, 

John 

Edited May 28, 2019 by porschemad911

[Mikes15]

5 hours ago, porschemad911 said:

Well yes! The Coopers FAQ says 10 - 30% loss during fermentation, but a recent study done at Ballast Point (fascinating interview on Brew Strong) shows a minimum of 30% loss and up to 50% loss (in the beers they're making anyway). I would like to get a hold of his revised IBU formula and implement in my spreadsheet. 

Also - they have a beer with 40 IBU all from the dry hop, no kettle or whirlpool additions. 

Cheers, 

John 

Ahh, & there I was thinking you where making a joke!! - I doubt coopers are quoting finished IBU in the recipes though are they?

Very interesting about the DH IBU's considering calc's & people dont seem to account for them, my totally inexperienced IBU knoledge so far is;-

- Make IBU = to OG for IPA styles,

- Dont allow for DH IBU's

- Short boil IBU's are not as bitter as those from longer boil schedules even if the numbers are the same.

- IBU's gained earlier in the boils are stronger more bitter then those from late additions.

[Mikes15]

Was expecting to CC this 2nt after it sitting at 1012 for a couple of days, gave it one more check, 1010!

tastes ok, not that bitter, a bit like a scotch ale at the mo, time will tell

[Beerlust]

I understand how hyper-critical you are about the outcome of the recipe given what happened with your first brewing of it. The mere fact you've decided to do it again tells me you have faith in it.

Keep the faith, it's a terrific home brew recipe/beer from the Coopers DIY Team.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Pezzza]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 4:12 PM, PB2 said:

We supplied a sample of the finished beer to our laboratory.  They measured the Bitterness Level directly. 

When you say 'measure directly' - what methodology is utilized?  I suspect it is all NATA Registered Lab stuff... but am interested in the determination of the value.

Given that 'bitterness' is a human taste parameter - what analogue indicator of bitterness is utilized in the lab and what equipment is employed for the 'measurement'?

Thanks PB2. BB

 

[PB2]

We have two methods:

1. Extract the bitterness from a sample, using Iso-Octane, then measure the absorbance with a Spectrophotometer (wavelength set at 275nm).

2. Stick a sample in our "you beaut" High Pressure Liquid Chromatography (HPLC) - it separates and directly measures the iso alpha-acids.

Regardless of the numbers, the sample is also taste tested. 

[Hairy]

41 minutes ago, PB2 said:

We have two methods:

1. Extract the bitterness from a sample, using Iso-Octane, then measure the absorbance with a Spectrophotometer (wavelength set at 275nm).

2. Stick a sample in our "you beaut" High Pressure Liquid Chromatography (HPLC) - it separates and directly measures the iso alpha-acids.

Regardless of the numbers, the sample is also taste tested. 

If you really want to test the bitterness measuring limits of your equipment, my mate has an ex-wife that is right up there.

[therealthing691]

1 hour ago, Hairy said:

If you really want to test the bitterness measuring limits of your equipment, my mate has an ex-wife that is right up there.

hahahhahahahhahahahahh PMSFL I nearly wet my pant been there donr that many years back LOL

 

[Mikes15]

First bottle cracked and,,,

Its mediocre,,, que the "you didn't 100% follow the recipe" comments, & totally accept those.

Really just an ok smooth malty slightly sweet not very hoppy ale TBQH, also not even close to the color shown in the recipe (none of my recipe brews have been, always much darker), in fact its Redder than my "Red IPA" recipe

So heh, maybe one day ill try the 100% genuine recipe, until then, I'm happy to sup it down & carry on to the next brew on my list,,,,

[Beerlust]

14 minutes ago, Mikes15 said:

First bottle cracked and,,,

Its mediocre,,, que the "you didn't 100% follow the recipe" comments, & totally accept those.

Really just an ok smooth malty slightly sweet not very hoppy ale TBQH, also not even close to the color shown in the recipe (none of my recipe brews have been, always much darker), in fact its Redder than my "Red IPA" recipe

So heh, maybe one day ill try the 100% genuine recipe, until then, I'm happy to sup it down & carry on to the next brew on my list,,,,

I'm not sure what is happening from your end, but I've mimicked hop schedules based on what I learned from brewing this beer in various configurations since I first brewed the recipe, & all have turned out very good quality beers.

It looks like I'm gonna have to brew this recipe & send you a few bottles at some point to validate the recipe to restore your faith in it.

Merely as a suggestion in circumstances like this, it would be a nice gesture & fact proving exercise for the @Coopers DIY Beer Team to send a Coopers Club member a sample or two of said DIY recipe to maybe maintain &/or restore confidence in the recipes put forward? 

The logistics I admit I haven't considered, nor the can of worms it might open, it is just an open thought based on kindness & proving honesty.

Lusty.

[Mikes15]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

I'm not sure what is happening from your end, but I've mimicked hop schedules based on what I learned from brewing this beer in various configurations since I first brewed the recipe, & all have turned out very good quality beers.

It looks like I'm gonna have to brew this recipe & send you a few bottles at some point to validate the recipe to restore your faith in it.

Merely as a suggestion in circumstances like this, it would be a nice gesture & fact proving exercise for the @Coopers DIY Beer Team to send a Coopers Club member a sample or two of said DIY recipe to maybe maintain &/or restore confidence in the recipes put forward? 

The logistics I admit I haven't considered, nor the can of worms it might open, it is just an open thought based on kindness & proving honesty.

Lusty.

More than happy for you &/or coopers to send me beer but yeah prob not something you/they want to get into

Maybe the magic is in the yeast with this one.

[Kegory]

Resurrecting this thread to ask an unrelated question about the same recipe.

The description says it is inspired by and sits somewhere between two well known brands from opposite sides of the country. Does anyone know what they are?

I assume one is Little Creatures, hence the Cherub. But what about the other? My first thought was Fat Yak, fat = chubby. But they both came from WA originally.

Any other suggestions?

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, Kegory said:

Resurrecting this thread to ask an unrelated question about the same recipe.

The description says it is inspired by and sits somewhere between two well known brands from opposite sides of the country. Does anyone know what they are?

I assume one is Little Creatures, hence the Cherub. But what about the other? My first thought was Fat Yak, fat = chubby. But they both came from WA originally.

Any other suggestions?

They probably do mean Fat Yak.

I made a version of the Chubby Cherub a while back but I used Centennial, Mosaic and Cascade hops instead of Chinook, Nelson Sauvin and Cascade hops.  Turned out pretty nice.  I think a recipe like this is worth doing because you do a hop boil to get your bitterness, instead of from a pre-hopped can of goop.  Plus you use unhopped extract for fermentables.

[Kegory]

Cheers, Shamus. It's on my list of recipes to try.

[Kegory]

This recipe uses Chinook (25g 25min boil), Nelson Sauvin (25g 15min) , and Cascade (25g 5min) plus a Chinook (25g) dry hop. I assume most of the bittering is going to come from the Chinook but Nelson Sauvin also has a high AA so I assume that makes a not insignificant contribution to the bitterness.

Fat Yak uses Pride of Ringwood, Nelson Sauvin, and Cascade. I'm guessing that the POR is mainly for bittering.

Little Creatures Pale Ale uses EKG for bittering even though they have only around half the AA of POR and NS, and Cascade and Chinook in the hop back.

I'm not a great fan of Fat Yak, and reading up on the hop profiles I think that is quite possibly from the Nelson Sauvin character. I am a big fan of Little Creatures Pale Ale, particularly the delicate floral aroma in a fresh batch. Reading up on the hop profiles it seems that the delicate floral aroma is probably coming from the EKG.

So, if I wanted to push the Chubby Cherub more into the LC PA direction would it be enough to substitute EKG for Nelson Sauvin and play around in the Ian H spreadsheet to find out how much to use to get the right amount of bitterness or should I consider also adding some to the dry hop addition?

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, Kegory said:

This recipe uses Chinook (25g 25min boil), Nelson Sauvin (25g 15min) , and Cascade (25g 5min) plus a Chinook (25g) dry hop. I assume most of the bittering is going to come from the Chinook but Nelson Sauvin also has a high AA so I assume that makes a not insignificant contribution to the bitterness.

Fat Yak uses Pride of Ringwood, Nelson Sauvin, and Cascade. I'm guessing that the POR is mainly for bittering.

Little Creatures Pale Ale uses EKG for bittering even though they have only around half the AA of POR and NS, and Cascade and Chinook in the hop back.

I'm not a great fan of Fat Yak, and reading up on the hop profiles I think that is quite possibly from the Nelson Sauvin character. I am a big fan of Little Creatures Pale Ale, particularly the delicate floral aroma in a fresh batch. Reading up on the hop profiles it seems that the delicate floral aroma is probably coming from the EKG.

So, if I wanted to push the Chubby Cherub more into the LC PA direction would it be enough to substitute EKG for Nelson Sauvin and play around in the Ian H spreadsheet to find out how much to use to get the right amount of bitterness or should I consider also adding some to the dry hop addition?

Looking at a couple of other LC PA recipes, they have EKG as a boil addition (assuming they are correct).  So, yeah, I would boil with enough EKG to get the same IBU's as you would from the Nelson Sauvin.  A dry hop with 25g of EKG would also be a good addition.

[Kegory]

Thanks @Shamus O'Sean