bulk priming question

[worry wort]

thinking of moving to the bulk priming method for my beers. I have 2 fv now so always keen to try new stuff, but was reading an article (u.s. brewing site) on bulk priming, and they talk of co2 volumes and how they vary from beer style to beer style, and how this impacts on how much priming product you use. To use a commonly heard phrase these days, WTF? How much does this impact on amount of sugar used? Heres my plan. I plan to rack off about 23ltrs from fv1 to fv2 (i ususally brew about 24-25ltrs at a time). I was thinking of using dextrose, but i now see LDM is an option for bulk priming, which I think would produce a bit more head retention and just alter the beer a bit in a good direction (up for correction or advice here). working on about 5g per heaped teaspoon, or 10g per bottle (i use 1250ml pets), i figured 190g of sugar. How much would I use of a. dextrose, b. LDM? Also, would using LDM affect the .04% alcohol boost given by priming with sugar?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Don't get too caught up in all the CO2 volumes stuff, while it is true that different styles have different carbonation levels, if you've been happy with the carbonation you've achieved so far then simply look at replicating that with the bulk priming. 

If you're wanting to get a similar outcome to using carb drops, then around 180g table sugar in 23 litres is the go. Dissolve it in some boiling water then put this solution in the second fermenter and transfer the beer into it. Make sure the transfer is done via a hose running into the bottom of the receiving fermenter as you want to minimise splashing. 

I haven't used dry malt for priming but you need more of it as it isn't fully fermentable like dextrose or table sugar.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Graculus]

I agree with OVB.

I looked at all that stuff when I started out too Worry Wort.
I've just stuck to 7-8g per litre which is roughly 180g of dextrose per 23 litres.

Works fine for me. I've tried varying the amount depending on what kind of beer I've been making.
I've seen people say to cut down on the dextrose when making stout. That didn't work for me. I'm using 7g per litre.
Having said that I'm drinking the last six or so bottles of a year old European Lager at the moment.
I might add 9g per litre to the one I'm brewing now as I think this one is under carbonated.

[worry wort]

so if it isn't fully fermentable it will throw a deposit and annul the whole idea behind bulk priming? ill stick with sugar then, been using it for near 40 years. thanks for your knowledge once again.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It probably won't "throw a deposit" but I'm not convinced it's really any better than sugar. It's a small amount anyway. 

There is a difference between dextrose and sugar in regards to the amount used though. You need about 10% more dextrose by weight than sugar to achieve the same carbonation level. 

[BlackSands]

26 minutes ago, worry wort said:

so if it isn't fully fermentable it will throw a deposit and annul the whole idea behind bulk priming? ill stick with sugar then, been using it for near 40 years. thanks for your knowledge once again.

For the small quantities involved ordinary table sugar is an obvious choice and also the cheapest.  I've never primed with more than 160g/23litres though, the pressure generated get's my PET's rock hard and I worry about bottle failures even at that level.  I've had quite a few develop micro-leaks on the bottom of the bottle in the past.  More usually I use 140-150g.

But, it seems plenty of folks  routinely carbonate to levels much higher than that so....  ?   

Edited May 20, 2019 by BlackSands

[Graculus]

22 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

For the small quantities involved ordinary table sugar is an obvious choice and also the cheapest.  I've never primed with more than 160g/23litres though, the pressure generated get's my PET's rock hard and I worry about bottle failures even at that level.  I've had quite a few develop micro-leaks on the bottom of the bottle in the past.  More usually I use 140-150g.

But, it seems plenty of folks  routinely carbonate to levels much higher than that so....  ?   

Yes, I do. I use dextrose and I'll use 180g per 23 litres.
I'm forever taking my beers to BBQ's or down the surf club and everyone seems to think they're fine.

[Otto Von Blotto]

19 minutes ago, Graculus said:

Yes, I do. I use dextrose and I'll use 180g per 23 litres.
I'm forever taking my beers to BBQ's or down the surf club and everyone seems to think they're fine.

That works out at about 162g if table sugar was used. Obviously not the same as using 180g sugar, which would work out at about 200g dextrose.  

[Graculus]

13 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That works out at about 162g if table sugar was used. Obviously not the same as using 180g sugar, which would work out at about 200g dextrose.  

Yes, I thought the sugar might be a bit more potent per gram than the dextrose. I probably did read that a while ago.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, the difference is about 9-10% because there is some water content in the dextrose. 

[Aussiekraut]

51 minutes ago, Graculus said:

Yes, I do. I use dextrose and I'll use 180g per 23 litres.

For PET or glass bottles? Or both?

[karlos_1984]

I've always used carb drops. But if you stick to the 7-8g of table sugar per litre, how much water do u dissolve this in? I'm assuming pre-boiled for sanitising?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I used to use about 250-300mL. If you mix it in a Pyrex jug you can boil the whole solution in the microwave. 

Aussiekraut the priming rate would be for both. I only ever used glass.

[BlackSands]

46 minutes ago, Graculus said:

Yes, I thought the sugar might be a bit more potent per gram than the dextrose. I probably did read that a while ago.

Though a trivial sum, it's another reason sugar is a better option than dextrose IMO - it's cheaper anyway, AND you also use less for the same level of carbonation.  

180g dextrose / 162g sugar works out to be around 3 VolsCO² .

 

 

[Graculus]

4 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

For PET or glass bottles? Or both?

99.9% is in glass bottles. I might put the odd one or two in PET now and again just so I can check carbonation.

3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

Though a trivial sum, it's another reason sugar is a better option than dextrose IMO - it's cheaper anyway, AND you also use less for the same level of carbonation.  

180g dextrose / 162g sugar works out to be around 3 VolsCO² .

 

 

I always have dextrose available. I don't think we have any white table sugar in the house. I'd have to check.

[BlackSands]

2 minutes ago, Graculus said:

99.9% is in glass bottles. I might put the odd one or two in PET now and again just so I can check carbonation.

I always have dextrose available. I don't think we have any white table sugar in the house. I'd have to check.

As mentioned the sums involved aren't exactly huge but by way of example 1 kilo of dextrose would cost me $4 at my LHBS.   I can buy 1.5kg table sugar for $2.75 at the local supermarket.  

When I'm feeling really lazy I use sugar cubes (4.5g) (1 per 750ml bottle).   Box of 100 cubes is $4.30 so a lot more expensive than plain sugar or dextrose but still way cheaper than carb drops! 

[porschemad911]

I stopped bulk priming after my jerry can developed a leak (from storing Starsan long term).

This thread made me realise that I haven't felt the need to buy another bulk priming vessel. Using my 6l Tap-a-draft bottles with 6 carb drops or 330ml / 500ml bottles with 1 carb drop each (depending on the style) gives pretty good results.

Cheers, 

John 

[Norris!]

I used to bulk prime until I got kegs, now I use the carb drops for the odd bottle here and there, but I prefer bulk priming, because I prime most of my ales to 3.0 and I don't seem to get that level with drops, since they come in about 2.5, someone correct me here if I am wrong, and I would have to faff around with cutting them.

To me it is worth it to bulk prime large batches to dial in your preferred carb levels.

[ChristinaS1]

Bulk priming is good if your bottles aren't all the same size, or if they are a somewhat different size than what the carb drops are designed for. 

I have been bulk priming for years and tend to use ordinary table sugar. I have occasionally used brown sugar, which can provide a subtle hint of caramel to a light beer; brown sugar requires about an extra 10gm vs white table sugar.

The one disadvantage to bulk priming is if you end up with less volume than anticipated; your carbonation level can end up higher than intended, which is why I don't aim for more than 2.5 volumes. 

One thing I have noticed here in Canada is that I need to use ~15-20gm more priming sugar in the summer than in the winter, to get the same carbonation. I guess that has to do with the max temp of the beer prior to bottling, and the fact that there is more residual CO2 in 20C beer than in 23C beer. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[BlackSands]

17 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

One thing I have noticed here in Canada is that I need to use ~15-20gm more priming sugar in the summer than in the winter, to get the same carbonation. I guess that has to do with the max temp of the beer prior to bottling, and the fact that there is more residual CO2 in 20C beer than in 23C beer. 

For those fermenting in a temp controlled environment is this really an issue?    Or are you suggesting that after fermentation and cold crash the beer is allowed to warm up to ambient prior to bottling?   

[Otto Von Blotto]

Was never an issue when I was bottling because the beer was always subjected to the same temps year round, and bottled cold.

[ChristinaS1]

5 hours ago, BlackSands said:

For those fermenting in a temp controlled environment is this really an issue?    Or are you suggesting that after fermentation and cold crash the beer is allowed to warm up to ambient prior to bottling?   

I am talking more about the time before I got a brew fridge. Back then, I would sometimes need 180gm of dextrose for bulk priming in the summer, whereas in the winter, and now that I have temp control, it is more often 140-150gm.

Nowadays I bottle cold....I always raise the temp a couple of degrees for a D-rest prior to the CC. I know that if fermentation temp is 20C or higher, a D-rest is not required, but I do it anyway. My understanding is that you need to use the highest temperature the beer was at for the bulk priming calculation, so the D-rest temp, rather than the fermentation temperature. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

PS 80% of my brews are fermented at 18C with the ale/lager yeast blend, and D-rested at 20C. I only ferment English Bitters at 21C, and D-rest at 23C.

[Marty_G]

I am so confused. I am considering bulk priming my kegs that sit and age. The reasoning is the priming sugar should remove any oxygen that is in the brew and head space thereby reducing the chances of oxidation of the beer ...  I have read so much conflicting info on the amount of sugar to use. So can someone give it to me straight. How much table sugar should i use to prime a 19l keg of Ale and a 19l keg of lager ...  I have read and had calculators tell me it is anywhere between 40-180 grams ...  Thanks ... 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's about 70-80g for fully carbonated beer. If you're just looking to mop up oxygen 20g or so would probably do it. 

I don't bother personally. I haven't had any oxidation problems in my kegs, and all I do is fill them, purge the headspace and then give them an hour or two on serving pressure before storing, unless they go straight into the kegerator in which case they stay on gas until empty. 

[Cosmo2450]

Bulk priming is something I want to explore. Well more or less natural condition a keg. I had thought of maybe keeping some unfermented wort to use as priming sugar. Anyone done anything like this?