Time effective bottle cleaning system

[YeastyBoy]

Having just spent some time cleaning 30 long necks (30 reused Coopers Long Necks) for my latest brew with sodium Percab and a bottle brush at the kitchen sink. Way to much thinking time!!

Anyone found a quicker, more cost effective/efficient/time saving way of cleaning bottles?

Dishwasher for example??

Thanks in advance

[WildIslandBrewer]

Kegs!

We looked at making a cleaning rack - check out YouTube for designs.  There are quite powerful ones that use bilge pumps to push a hard spray into the bottle.  It all fits in a plastic storage box and that circulates the cleaner liquid around until they're done.

In the end we went to kegs - so much simpler.  Probably waste a bit more beer though.  Still have my bottles though for Ginger Beer and test runs.

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by WildIslandBrewer

[Brown Nail]

I just give the bottles a shake and rinse out as soon as I've finished with them and have never needed a brush. Soaking them in sanitiser is still a bit tedious though.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Almost all of my glass bottles are second hand.  Maybe I am a bit paranoid, but the first clean had to be thorough.  Soak in sodium percarbonate solution overnight.  Bottle brush clean the next day.  Really good rinse then hang to dry.  Sanitise with a vinator before use.

Now that I know the condition of my bottles, I just shake up the yeast in the bottom of a bottle with about 50ml of warm tap water and tip out.  Fill with water, quick bottle brush once over.  Empty and rinse again twice with 50ml water.  I do this process immediately after pouring the beer from the bottle.  Then hang to dry.  If you let the crud go dry in the bottom of the bottle, it is back to the drawing board.

[Worthog]

You people must have great elbows and a penchant for the bottlebrush*;

Simply rinse, put a capful of bleach in, fill with cold water, let stand overnight. Empty and rinse with hot water. Air dry, awaiting your prebottling regime which would include sanitiser.

Robert is your mother's brother. 

*Bottle brush" leaves lines of uncleaned surface due to the bristle effect.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Worthog

[Pezzza]

Shamus is spot on the money - Old bottles you have not got history on - are a bit harder.  Yer good clean ones - make sure you keep them clean.

My very first lesson 30 years ago using glass Boots the Chemist Pint bottles from my first HB Coach doing a Coopers Lager in a 25 Degree Room with Double Distilled Water was...

ALWAYS wash your bottles out straightaway - three hot rinses.  Let them dry... and then cap them again with old re-used bottle lids.

For years thereafter I have only ever done a pre-fill boiling water rinse... no Sod-Perc or Stellar-San... just hot water rinses then boiling water immediately before fill.  And had no trouble.

I did inherit some old Coopers bottles a month or so ago - but just ditched ones where there was evidence of gunge... and hose sprayed the good ones out - got c. 6 dozen goodies.

I think I will do the Perc in them to be sure to be sure... as they had been shed stored for 20+ years. 

And then to add to the collection... buy Coopers Largies on special and build up yer inventory ; )

[Otto Von Blotto]

I used to just soak them in percarbonate then triple rinse with hot water the next day and drain in the sun. I'd do about 30 odd at a time. Once dried they lived in plastic storage boxes until bottling day when I'd simply pick them out and fill them up. Didn't bother with starsan, although it would be best practice. 

They were rinsed of sediment after pouring as well. Once I built up the 30 odd, they'd be soaked.

[Worthog]

You guys are all petrified of using the most basic and affective cleaning treatment - unscented bleach - White King.

The anecdotes of bandaid taste and phenolics due to chlorine has twisted common sense.

AIR DRY your bleached bottles, guys, and then sanitise after they are dry. Wonder at the crystal clarity - hop oils and malt deposits - all gone!

2000 bottles, 80 batches and US-05 yeast can't be wrong. 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

In my defence this idea hadn't been floated when I was still bottling, and what I was doing worked perfectly fine. Still don't see the need for it unless the bottles get cloudy though, because they never did with perc soaks either. 

I would agree that the risk of chlorophenols disappears if the bottles or whatever are allowed to fully dry since the evaporation removes the chlorine, if it hasn't already evaporated out while they sit there soaking. Even better if they're dried in the sun as it destroys chlorine. 

Besides, bleach isn't a cleaner, it's a disinfectant

[Worthog]

9 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...Besides, bleach isn't a cleaner, it's a disinfectant

So all that haze inside your bottles is "infection"? 

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Worthog said:

Bottle brush" leaves lines of uncleaned surface due to the bristle effect

Now you have got me really worried.  Elbows be ready.

2 hours ago, Worthog said:

Simply rinse, put a capful of bleach in, fill with cold water, let stand overnight

Being a bit serious, I had read about this method on the forum too.  It could be an option for me later at night when I get in trouble for making too much noise sloshing about in the kitchen sink using my normal method.  I usally rinse out the yeast then fill and stand the bottles until the next morning.  The capful of bleach could kill two birds with one stone.

53 minutes ago, Worthog said:

So all that haze inside your bottles is "infection"

No.  That would be the mud settling out of the water from my dam that I use to make my beer. 

[Graculus]

2 hours ago, Worthog said:

You guys are all petrified of using the most basic and affective cleaning treatment - unscented bleach - White King.

The anecdotes of bandaid taste and phenolics due to chlorine has twisted common sense.

AIR DRY your bleached bottles, guys, and then sanitise after they are dry. Wonder at the crystal clarity - hop oils and malt deposits - all gone!

2000 bottles, 80 batches and US-05 yeast can't be wrong. 

Cheers

 

 

 

I agree. When I'm given bottles they go in a plastic tub.
Glug, glug, glug of the bleach. Might be four glugs, I'm not sure. Fill up with water.
24 hours later the bottles are sparkling.

Gets the labels off too.

I then rinse using my bottle rinser with warm water in.
Put them on the bottle tree to dry.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Graculus

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, Worthog said:

So all that haze inside your bottles is "infection"? 

No but it is matter that chlorine will get rid of, in the same way pool water is kept clear, but goes cloudy if chlorine isn't used or not enough is used. However, it won't remove caked on deposits, or grease or whatever like proper cleaners will. 

The water in our pool got pretty awful looking when the filter valve broke earlier in the year but cleared up again after a couple of days running the chlorinator for about 10-12 hours on high chlorine production once it was replaced.

[YeastyBoy]

Thanks All, appreciate the input and I have a few additional methods to try.

Cheers

[BlackSands]

17 hours ago, Worthog said:

You guys are all petrified of using the most basic and affective cleaning treatment - unscented bleach - White King.

The anecdotes of bandaid taste and phenolics due to chlorine has twisted common sense.

AIR DRY your bleached bottles, guys, and then sanitise after they are dry. Wonder at the crystal clarity - hop oils and malt deposits - all gone!

2000 bottles, 80 batches and US-05 yeast can't be wrong. 

Cheers

 

As mentioned elsewhere previously, I have had a bit of an aversion to using bleach, though ironically it was actually quite common practice decades ago -  using both bleach and sodium metabisulpite.   So, I might just have to try this approach next time.  

I've actually been meaning to post a pic of my bottles that have a an obvious film/residue building on the inner surface.  The bottles were initially rinsed immediately after use, later brushed and sanitised on bottling day.  This residue build up is pretty much what I always see with all my beers -  most particularly with the hoppy ones.   This prompted to inspect a current batch which is about 20 days in the bottle now and I can see that even my brushing hasn't been 100% effective. There's obvious signs of 'brush marks' suggesting there's still traces of this residue on the bottle walls.  They certainly looked sparkling on the day though.  I don't know how much of a risk this represents - if the film is hop oils I assume the inherent antibacterial properties of hops combined with the sanitation will have neutralised any potential contaminant...        

 I found a long soak in sodium perc and/or TSP doesn't remove this oily film, hence the reason I have taken to them with a brush each time, but maybe it's time to try a different approach.

 As an aside, has anyone tried using a bottle brush attached to a electric screwdriver/drill running at a slow speed?

[Pezzza]

3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

--- I've actually been meaning to post a pic of my bottles that have a an obvious film/residue building on the inner surface.   

 I found a long soak in sodium perc and/or TSP doesn't remove this oily film, hence the reason I have taken to them with a brush each time, but maybe it's time to try a different approach.

 As an aside, has anyone tried using a bottle brush attached to a electric screwdriver/drill running at a slow speed?

Funny BlackSands I have never had the clean bottle Cloudy Bottle Wall (‘CBW’) problem - but then again - I may have never reached your level of excellence re Hopping...  without trying to be silly - honestly I suspect if brewers crank the hop factor up - you are more likely to get CBW than the tame basic hopping approach I have taken so far.  I am not that fired up about the Hop Bomb thing myself (well not yet anyway)... and again not trying to be a smart#$%@ but I may also have not refilled my bottles enough... as I am only starting up again after an extended period out of HB.  So a combo of lots of refills and then w extra festive hoppy brews might exacerbate the CBW phenomenon.  Maybe give the dirtly old bleach thing a go?  Worthoggler and Graculus seem like they are getting great results.  Be great to hear what you find out... 

A mate years ago had claimed use of the drill n brush… but cannot report on success or hazards sorry… was ages ago and I was running a pretty clean set of bottles by then so did not partake.

One thing I did have an interesting result with more recently was using hard core drain cleaner in a NSW 1963 Bottle Company Bottle found in the bush that was caked internally with mud drape fines… I had done a long soak and used sand in water to shake-scour most out… then wanted to remove the remaining patches of clay/organics CBW film… added drain cleaner crystals and water and capped the bottle… which then unfortunately later cracked at its base and leaked the caustic fluid all over the kitchen bench and floor.  The base that remains…Pic below.  Mmmm. Think you guys are way smarter than this and are doing it all in plastic crates. 

Shame about the festive bottle but I guess better to have had the bottle break with cleaner in it rather than beer hey 

 

[Pezzza]

5 hours ago, BlackSands said:

As mentioned elsewhere previously, I have had a bit of an aversion to using bleach, though ironically it was actually quite common practice decades ago -  using both bleach and sodium metabisulpite.   So, I might just have to try this approach next time.  

Maybe also try using a Vinegar soak...  and there is a lot of stuff on the net re cleaning organic matter in old bottles posted by the wacky bottle collectors of the world ; )

There are hard core acid washes but there are safety issues around using them.

[Worthog]

I find it hilarious that people want to find the most complicated chemical cocktail to do the simplest job.  And if that is not enough let's use the biggest, dirtiest piece of machinery we can lay our hands on, and attach an aeroplane propeller...

That will get that pesky shite out of my bottle! 

Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

I used to get cloudy bottles from basic kit beers when I just rinsed them in hot water. It took a number of batches but it was there. 

I would have thought using a drill with a bottle brush would be less work than doing it by hand if it is required at all. 

If I was to clean out cloudy bottles again I'd probably use the bleach soak method initially, but once they are clean I'd likely go back to percarbonate. As I said when starting with non cloudy bottles, they never got cloudy being soaked in percarbonate after each use, and it's no more difficult or complicated than bleach. 

[MitchBastard]

Easiest method I’ve found is just throwing em In the washing machine. 

[ChristinaS1]

@Worthog Like Starsan, bleach is a sanitizer. They require a certain concentration and contact time. Depending on the concentration, bleach requires a minimum of 20 minutes of contact time, and lots of rinsing. Starsan only requires 30 seconds of contact time and does not have to be rinsed, so faster, less work, and better for the environment.

Bleach is safe to use with glass but should not be used with PET bottles, as it will be absorbed by the plastic.

Neither Starsan or bleach are degreasers / surfactants.  Hop oils and proteins do build up in bottles over time.  Since you want to stay away from detergents, the best thing for this is a strong alkaline cleaner of some sort such as PBW, sodium percarbonate, Napisan, and the like. If you soak overnight with an alkaline cleaner after every use, you might not need to follow up with a brush, but it really depends on how many hops you use, so it is very individual. Personally I don't use a lot of hops so I only deep clean my bottles once a year, with PBW and a brush. The rest of the year I just triple rinse after pouring and sanitize with Starsan before refilling.

I don't use a dishwasher. Due to its head killing properties it would be risky to use dishwasher detergent, which means that all you are getting out of putting the bottles through the dishwasher is a hot water rinse and treatment with dry heat, to sanitize. There are better ways to sanitize....If all traces of protein have not been removed prior to the heat cycle, it will get baked on by the heat, making it very difficult to remove. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited April 28, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

@BlackSands have you tried PBW? It is what commercial breweries use. I find it works better than the Canadian equivalent of Napisan, which I assume is due to its surfactants and buffers (so it is unaffected by hard water).

Because PBW is so expensive, I usually mix it 1:1 with a generic oxygen cleaner (main ingredients are sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate), which in my case still works well. Given how many hops you use, you might be better off sticking to 100% PBW.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Worthog]

6 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

...Bleach is safe to use with glass but should not be used with PET bottles, as it will be absorbed by the plastic.....

Cheers,

Christina.

I can't find the thread now, but using a capful of bleach in cold water overnight, in PETs, to "dehaze" was originally suggested by @PB2.  This was extremely successful and resulted in total clarity.

I used those PETs successfully for many cycles prior to finally moving to all glass.

Cheers

Edited April 28, 2019 by Worthog

[BlackSands]

9 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

@BlackSands have you tried PBW? It is what commercial breweries use. I find it works better than the Canadian equivalent of Napisan, which I assume is due to its surfactants and buffers (so it is unaffected by hard water).

Because PBW is so expensive, I usually mix it 1:1 with a generic oxygen cleaner (main ingredients are sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate), which in my case still works well. Given how many hops you use, you might be better off sticking to 100% PBW.

Cheers,

Christina.

I've avoided PBW simply because of the cost.  Like you say, it's not cheap!   What I might try do actually is after rinsing the bottles is then immediately top them up with a sodium-perc solution and give them an overnight soak rather than waiting to do it just prior to bottling. Sodium-perc hasn't worked once a film has already formed but perhaps it may help prevent the build up happening if I use it straight away....   

Edited April 29, 2019 by BlackSands

[ChristinaS1]

11 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

I've avoided PBW simply because of the cost.  Like you say, it's not cheap!   What I might try do actually is after rinsing the bottles is then immediately top them up with a sodium-perc solution and give them an overnight soak rather than waiting to do it just prior to bottling. Sodium-perc hasn't worked once a film has already formed but perhaps it may help prevent the build up happening if I use it straight away....   

Worth a try. Good luck!