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David Martin

Sparkling ale

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3 hours ago, David Martin said:

Could someone please give me a recipe and tips on making a Coopers Sparkling Ale

Hi David

Coopers Sparkling Ale in the recipe pages.  I have not made it though so I cannot comment on how close it gets.

Cheers

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2 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

Or use the white labs Australian Ale WLP009? Is it the same?

Reportedly it is.

My LHBS recently started stocking White Labs yeasts, & I actually asked them if they could get hold of any, but unfortunately they can't atm. White Labs have a "Yeast Vault" program that contains yeasts I guess they don't believe constitute full production of regularly. The WLP009 falls into this category. They need 150 people/businesses to pre-order it before they will produce a batch of the strain for that 150 block sale.

I've done the re-activation many times from the bottle very successfully, but purchasing it from White Labs gives me an accurate starting cell count that I would like for re-use purposes. This is on the back of some problems I've had trying to re-use the strain from the re-activated bottle source where I don't accurately know how much yeast I have from brew to brew moving forward with it. Kelsey successfully reproduces separated storage amounts after the starter process from known starting cell count numbers. I would like to move into this space with my yeast re-use processes.

@#$%'s me off that it isn't available. I might actually approach Coopers & see if they will allow me to purchase a known count volume from them. When I was a regular on a British forum a few years ago, the guys there constantly spoke of the local breweries there being kind enough to make their yeasts available to home brewers for a small sum.

It can't hurt to ask. @Coopers Beer @Coopers DIY Beer Team

Cheers,

Lusty.

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22 hours ago, Beerlust said:

It can't hurt to ask.

Starsan a 1 litre mason jar and drop by the brewery... Surely there must be a tank with a heap of yeast in the cone every day at Coopers!

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On 4/24/2019 at 10:44 PM, Beerlust said:

Reportedly it is.

My LHBS recently started stocking White Labs yeasts, & I actually asked them if they could get hold of any, but unfortunately they can't atm.

Lusty.

Hey Lusty,

Can't remember entirely but was your LHBS Beerbelly? If so, they have posted on their facebook page that they are doing a White Labs order, so if
Anyone is wanting anything ordered that isn't on their website they can put an order in by the end of today.

Cheers,
Hoppy

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Ive heard its the same too. Saying that id still be culturing it up from bottles. 1 its cheaper. And 2. Often strains change over time. You may not get the same result using WLP009.

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Hiya Hoppy.

9 hours ago, Hoppy81 said:

Can't remember entirely but was your LHBS Beerbelly? If so, they have posted on their facebook page that they are doing a White Labs order, so if
Anyone is wanting anything ordered that isn't on their website they can put an order in by the end of today.

Yeah I mainly use Beerbelly. Not sure that would include the 'vault' stuff though. Anyway, I'm not on Facebook. 😉

Thanks for the 'heads up' though. 👍

Lusty.

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Coopers Yeast is in every bottle of our Naturally Conditioned Ales and out there for the taking.  Live yeast, in every bottle, for the Homie to take and grow up as their own culture!  Not many breweries offer this sort of information up and, as such, we are not likely to invite customers to the brewery for a cup or two of yeast slurry.  Not even people on the brewery tour!

If you are concerned about yeast population numbers, get the youngest Coopers Ale you can find to help with the healthiest yeast possible.

I remember our "Dr Yeast" saying that our natural conditioning process should produce at least a doubling of yeast population.  Secondary fermentation, we seed with yeast at the rate of 1 million cells per ml.

So, if you grab a 750ml bottle of Original Pale Ale, for example (750ml is a nice size):

750 x 106 x 2 = 1.5 x 109  of course, halve this if you are taking yeast from a 375ml bottle.

The rest is up to you...

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12 minutes ago, PB2 said:

Coopers Yeast is in every bottle of our Naturally Conditioned Ales and out there for the taking.  Live yeast, in every bottle, for the Homie to take and grow up as their own culture!  Not many breweries offer this sort of information up and, as such, we are not likely to invite customers to the brewery for a cup or two of yeast slurry.  Not even people on the brewery tour!

If you are concerned about yeast population numbers, get the youngest Coopers Ale you can find to help with the healthiest yeast possible.

I remember our "Dr Yeast" saying that our natural conditioning process should produce at least a doubling of yeast population.  Secondary fermentation, we seed with yeast at the rate of 1 million cells per ml.

So, if you grab a 750ml bottle of Original Pale Ale, for example (750ml is a nice size):

750 x 106 x 2 = 1.5 x 109  of course, halve this if you are taking yeast from a 375ml bottle.

The rest is up to you...

Great info PB2.

Just curious. How many times do you reuse your yeast in your fermentations before your start again with a fresh culture? 

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I've been running, what once was a Coopers culture, for 41 brews. ☺️ 

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21 minutes ago, PB2 said:

I've been running, what once was a Coopers culture, for 41 brews. ☺️ 

Wow. And i thought my budvar yeast at 17 times was up there. I guess not..

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Hi Paul.

I'm glad you've entered the conversation on this as you are the foremost expert on it (at least here on the forum). 😎

27 minutes ago, PB2 said:

Coopers Yeast is in every bottle of our Naturally Conditioned Ales and out there for the taking.  Live yeast, in every bottle, for the Homie to take and grow up as their own culture!  Not many breweries offer this sort of information up and, as such, we are not likely to invite customers to the brewery for a cup or two of yeast slurry.  Not even people on the brewery tour!

If you are concerned about yeast population numbers, get the youngest Coopers Ale you can find to help with the healthiest yeast possible.

I remember our "Dr Yeast" saying that our natural conditioning process should produce at least a doubling of yeast population.  Secondary fermentation, we seed with yeast at the rate of 1 million cells per ml.

So, if you grab a 750ml bottle of Original Pale Ale, for example (750ml is a nice size):

750 x 106 x 2 = 1.5 x 109  of course, halve this if you are taking yeast from a 375ml bottle.

The rest is up to you...

We've had some conversations about the CCA yeast over the last few years & I've had problems after a couple of re-uses from the re-activation process with infection/spoilage/under attenuated ferments from what I've stored. I'm willing to concede that is MY fault. I'm smart enough to spot the problems early & correct or ditch yeast volumes prior to fermenting thus haven't had much in the way of tipping beer due to it. I'd just like to know what I'm doing wrong. I sanitise jars/collect enough yeast/prepare enough via re-activation, yet at some early point 2-3 gens in I experience problems from the bottle based yeast. 😢

The Sparkling Ale brew I did late last year really shocked me as I re-activated more bottles than normal due to the higher OG of that beer above what I normally brew & yet the brew stalled well ahead of expected FG to the point I had to add a fairly aggressive strain to finish off the ferment (the beer turned out fine BTW). 😁

17 minutes ago, PB2 said:

I've been running, what once was a Coopers culture, for 41 brews. ☺️ 

I've been on the forum for 7-8 years now Paul, & have not seen a post from you of your listed regiment to maintain this strain. I know you are very proud of this particular CCA strain to the point Coopers in some manner (for a better term) maintain a version of what you maintained/created.

Help us out Paul. If not "US", how about just a PM to me?!! 😉😁

Cheers,

Lusty.

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"Maintain" is not a word I would use - it's all a bit loose.

My method is nothing more than reactivating yeast from a bottle of a previous batch.  We all accept that this process is "not best practice" and all sorts of mutant yeast, wild yeast and other organisms potentially move the original yeast culture away from what it was, which was once as pure as the driven snow. ☺️  I simply monitor the activity and check the aroma before pitching. 

BTW - the "PB2"yeast, which was Genome Sequenced way back, about 15 years ago, is in the Coopers Brewery yeast vault.  It carries my name but I don't own it.  That's fine, coz I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway... 😌

 

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5 minutes ago, PB2 said:

"Maintain" is not a word I would use - it's all a bit loose.

My method is nothing more than reactivating yeast from a bottle of a previous batch.  We all accept that this process is "not best practice" and all sorts of mutant yeast, wild yeast and other organisms potentially move the original yeast culture away from what it was, which was once as pure as the driven snow. ☺️ 

 

So if I'm reading that right PB2, would you say my current mistake is harvesting from the fermenter trub, whereas I would be better served by bottling at least 3-4 longnecks & then re-activating from those each time?

Cheers,

Lusty.

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Harvesting from the previous batch is common.  So not sure if you are making a mistake by following that method??

You could try my method and see how it turns out.  I only use one 750ml for my starter.

Trust your eyes and nose.   😉

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I’m going to give this a try with my next brew, just to see how it works. 

Great info lads

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3 minutes ago, PB2 said:

..You could try my method and see how it turns out.

I like the concept of simple sugar re-activation, then full malt ferment growth, then back to simple sugar re-activation etc..etc.. it sounds like a plan. Certainly worth testing. 😎

9 minutes ago, PB2 said:

...Trust your eyes and nose.   😉

Yep. Have trusted this in this space for a few years now. Invaluable IMHO.

Thanks a heap for sharing that info with all of us here on the forum Paul! 😊

Cheers,

Lusty.

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The sugar/dextrose reactivation method is very effective for yeast taken straight from a commercial Coopers Ale bottle.

However, when reactivating yeast that's been through a primary and secondary fermentation - it needs more help so malt is best!  I use a malt based wort, ratio: 40g diluted to 500ml

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I remember those cell figures from a previous thread a few years ago. I'd imagine there'd be various drops in viability by the time you buy the beer in a bottlo, depending on how far it travels and in what conditions, and how long it sits on the shelf. You'd be getting pretty fresh stuff there Lusty, but up here the live cell count would probably be lower. 

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Sparkling Ale ?  

I have a recipe on file for the 1927 version.   Sparkling has changed a bit over the years. 

1927 Coopers Sparkling Ale
Brewed 6 May 1927

Recipe Specifics
Batch Size (L): 23.00     Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 3.90
Anticipated OG: 1.054    Plato: 13.41
Anticipated FG: 1.012
Anticipated EBC: ~12
Anticipated IBU: ~42
Alcohol: ~5.5 - 5.9% ABV

Grain/Extract/Sugar
%       Amount      Name Origin                                Potential     EBC
72.4    3.47 kg.    TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK   80.07            6
18.7    0.89 kg.     White Cane Sugar AU                 100.00           0
 8.7     0.42 kg.     JWM Traditional Ale Malt AU        82.23            7
 0.2      10 g.        Bairds Black Patent Malt UK         58.43          1350

Water Treatment
For Sydney water, Calcium Sulphate 2.5g in the mash and 2.5g in the sparge water.

Mash Schedule
Mash 69°C (156°F) for 60 minutes,    Sparge 79°C (175°F).

Boil
70 minutes – Sugar, and Whirlfloc added at 15 minutes from end of boil.

Hops
Amount   Name                      Form    Alpha   IBU     Boil Time
45.0 g.    East Kent Goldings   Pellet   4.75    26.2    70 min.
28.0 g.    East Kent Goldings   Pellet   4.75    13.1    35 min.
12.0 g.    East Kent Goldings   Pellet    4.75    2.5     10 min.

Yeast
White Labs WLP009 Australian Ale or WLP023 Burton Ale yeast, or try cultivating the yeast from a bottle or two of present day Coopers Sparkling Ale.


Fermentation
Primary fermentation 17°C (62°F) for 3 days, then let rise to 21°C (70.5°F),
cleanse  around Day 8 at 20°C (68°F), when the terminal gravity should be ~1.012, by adding  isinglass/gelatine.
Day 14:   rack, prime, and bottle.      Condition at ~20°C for 6 weeks.
Carbonate the beer at 2.6 volumes

If you prime for bottle carbonation, like Coopers does, this will lift the ABV a touch to ~5.9%. 

 

 

I neglected to note the source but I think it came from an Australian Home Brewers convention recently.  There was also a recipe for the 1891 and 1975 versions of Sparkling Ale but I just can't lay my hand on them at the minute.   If I find them I will post here.

There is a good deal of cane sugar in the 1927 but  at the convention all three versions of the Sparkling Ale were tasted and the audience strongly favored the 1975 but the panel all came down on the side of the 1927.

 

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