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hops substitute


worry wort

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1 hour ago, worry wort said:

was hoping to try the Pacific Summer Ale but don't have any summer hops. I'm trying to use up what hops I have left, would a Saaz be an acceptable substitute?

thanks

WorryWord

Hi WW

My quick googling says that Saaz would be a suitable substitute.

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Just my opinion, but I would think you want tropical flavours like, citrus, passionfruit, melon, berry.

Saaz might be a bit spicy/piney/earthy.

Suggest any of or combo of Citra, Galaxy (hints of peach), or maybe Amarillo or Simcoe if you don't think they'll be too fruity for Pacific Summer Ale.

Cheers

Edited by Worthog
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/20/2019 at 9:20 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't know why, Saaz doesn't taste or smell anything like those descriptors.

Hi Otto just flicking through some old posts and found this one I made a S&W Pacific Ale clone and had the same issue couldn’t get any summer  so Saaz was recommended so used Saaz with galaxy and adjusted slightly for ibus and turned out pretty spot on to the real thing too. Just for yours and others info, don’t know if the galaxy overpowers the Saaz or what??

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On 4/21/2019 at 1:20 AM, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't know why, Saaz doesn't taste or smell anything like those descriptors.

I often wonder who it is that creates these hop descriptions.  I assume initial descriptors come from the growers?  I've encountered a few where my perception in no way matched the description.  And variance among descriptions depending on who's doing the describing! 

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Maybe they have a panel and just collate all the different things they come up with, and just pick the most common ones among the results. But I wouldn't have any idea, purely guessing there! 

I have to say most of the time I've read about a hop and then used it that the results have been pretty close to what was described. Although I've never noticed spicy from Saaz. 

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30 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Maybe they have a panel and just collate all the different things they come up with, and just pick the most common ones among the results. But I wouldn't have any idea, purely guessing there! 

I have to say most of the time I've read about a hop and then used it that the results have been pretty close to what was described. Although I've never noticed spicy from Saaz. 

I reckon to a certain extent once the seed is sown by the description it then influences your perception to some extent - probably because you're then consciously looking for the flavour(s) as described.  I read "peaches" as part of a description for Wai-iti, and reading in a beer review around the same time - a brew containing the same single hop the author mentioned "tinned peaches".  I then did a single hop golden ale with Wai-iti and all I could taste was tinned peaches!  I recall a customer (last year when I was managing my LHBS) who had used it predominantly in a recent PA.  When I asked him what he thought of Wai-iti he made no mention of peaches.   I mentioned my "tinned peaches" brew but he was convinced there were none in his beer.  It all seems rather subjective to me!    

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When boiled, various chemical compounds found in hop oils are transformed via isomerisation into other flavours & characters that are different to the pure aromatic compounds released when a hop is "dry hopped".

The Hop Products Australia website makes mention of these different outcomes in the description listings of their hop varieties.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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Isn't it only alpha acids that get isomerized by heat? Aren't aromatic oils just flashed off? 🤔

I checked the flavour descriptions of some the hops on the HPA site but could find no mention on the effects of heat on aromatics. They did not compare or contrast the effects of late kettle or whirlpool additions to dry hops, but I did not look at all of the varieties. Did I miss it?

I did see mention of how the flavour and aroma of a particular aroma variety might differ depending on dosage, and on whether it is used in a high or low gravity beer. When you think about it, it makes sense that dosage changes the flavour, as the taste threshold for each compound within the hop differs. And I suppose the effects of gravity have to do with solubility?

Cheers,

Christina.

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12 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Isn't it only alpha acids that get isomerized by heat? Aren't aromatic oils just flashed off? 🤔

I think that yes, aromatics are flashes off for sure, I’m not sure about that it’s only alpha acids get isomerised, I’m sure there’s more compounds that do as well but I’m also sure that that’s not what your getting at. 

12 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I did see mention of how the flavour and aroma of a particular aroma variety might differ depending on dosage, and on whether it is used in a high or low gravity beer. When you think about it, it makes sense that dosage changes the flavour, as the taste threshold for each compound within the hop differs. And I suppose the effects of gravity have to do with solubility?

I have experienced this with my new favourite hop Vic Secret, use in the boil it’s quite piney, and the later you use the more fruit bowl. I’m subsequently trying to get that nice balance between the two in my all vic secret pales. 

Anyway Christina, good discussion. 

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