1st Borough Lager fermenting temp

[Major BeerHump]

Hi guys, I'm a frequent visitor to the forum, but this is my first post. I've been brewing - just kits and bits - for about 10 years and have mainly brewed up strong ales and porters.

I'm about to start brewing one of the recent recipes of the month: 1st Borough Lager and I have a couple of questions regarding the correct fermentation temperature :

1) The can in the recipe is the Coopers Real Ale is. Is an ale kit OK to use for a lager?

2) The recipe states under the MIX instructions "Top up to 21 litres with warm or cold water (refrigerated if necessary) to get as close to 18C as possible." But then later under the BREW section it says to try to ferment at 15C. 15C is fine for lagers, but low for ales (ie; Real Ale). But then the can says ferment at 21C. This is OK for an ale but high for a lager. Which of these temperatures do you think I should ferment at?

Because it's a lager maybe it means pitch the yeast at 18C and then after fermentation has kicked off, reduce to 15C? 

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Major BeerHump

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi @Major BeerHump

You have been brewing 5 x longer than I have so what would I know.

Nevertheless:

1. I have used Ale kits with Lager yeasts without a problem.  The experts might think that is sacrilege but the beer tasted fine.
2. You should ferment at the temperature that suits the yeast.  With the Saflager W-34/70 yeast in that recipe I would do it at 12°C.  However, the yeast might intentionally give this beer something specific at 15°.
3. Starting off around 18°C could be about getting some initial yeast growth before fermentation kicks off.  @Otto Von Blotto has spoken about starting lagers either with the recommended yeast at a higher temperature and then dropping to fermentation temperature OR starting with an over-pitch of yeast but at the fermentation temperature.  The Coopers recipes seem to have a factor of safety in them so it is hard to go wrong or make a mistake with the brew.

Cheers Shamus

[Otto Von Blotto]

What yeast do they have in the recipe? 15 is high for a lager but perhaps it suits that recipe better than the usual 10-12 degrees. 

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

What yeast do they have in the recipe? 15 is high for a lager but perhaps it suits that recipe better than the usual 10-12 degrees. 

Coopers say to use Saflager 34/70 - Plus the kit yeast from the dark ale, which is probably an ale yeast. Not sure what they're thinking here, but they are the pros...

(That said, I've cut n pasted almost every one of their recipes - with different hops or less/more of this and that).

The temp specified is sort of in between for both yeast types, Id have thought. Neither will brew at their optimal temps.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Major BeerHump]

Thanks for the responses guys. As Shamus said the recommended yeast is Saflager W-34/70, but I've been using liquid yeasts in my past 2 brews and for this brew, I was going to use White Labs WLP830. Now thanks to what you lads have said, I've actually read the yeast packet  and low and behold it says for lagers, ferment at 10C - 13C! So the yeast is what governs the temperature!! Well, this has been a revelation for me because I've always gone by what the can says regards fermentation temp, and never thought to read the label of the yeast being used! Yeah, I know. I'm shaking my head too.

So I'll do as you said Otto and go with 12C. And I've also realised the kit doesn't matter too much whether it's labelled as ale or lager, as long as it's fermented at the appropriate temperature for the style of beer being brewed.

Thanks again for your help guys!

[Major BeerHump]

15 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

Coopers say to use Saflager 34/70 - Plus the kit yeast from the dark ale, which is probably an ale yeast. Not sure what they're thinking here, but they are the pros...

(That said, I've cut n pasted almost every one of their recipes - with different hops or less/more of this and that).

The temp specified is sort of in between for both yeast types, Id have thought. Neither will brew at their optimal temps.

Thanks Lab Rat. That was my thinking too before I read the liquid yeast label. I think I'll go with the recommended 12C. I mean, what could possible go wrong? 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yep, the temperature is governed by the yeast strain and the amount of yeast influenced flavours you want in the beer. For example, with an English ale yeast you could ferment at 18 for a cleaner profile that showcases the malt and hops more, or you could ferment it at 22-23 to get more esters from the yeast. 

[Lab Cat]

20 minutes ago, Major BeerHump said:

Now thanks to what you lads have said, I've actually read the yeast packet  and low and behold it says for lagers, ferment at 10C - 13C! So the yeast is what governs the temperature!! Well, this has been a revelation for me because I've always gone by what the can says regards fermentation temp, and never thought to read the label of the yeast being used! Yeah, I know. I'm shaking my head too.

Yes, I sussed on to this pretty early in my brewing. Given many of us use premium yeasts, they dictate what temp we brew at, not what it says on the can. Coopers put instructions on the can for the yeast they provide with it.

If I was brewing the 1st Borough, which is supposed to be a vienna lager, I'd stick with the lager yeast temp as well - even Coopers recipe indicates it'll take a bit longer to brew than an ale, so a dark lager it shall be. Not sure I'd bother with the ale yeast at all with this one. I don't know why they include it - there's only a 1kg of fermentables to brew.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Major BeerHump]

You've made me a convert to dig deeper - much deeper into the ways yeast can be used to control the flavour. I'd been getting pretty decent results with my very basic brewing techniques, but this will (combined with the fridge and Inkbird I bought 2 brews back) take my suds to a new level hopefully. Cheers!

[Lab Cat]

I made some really nice beers without temp control - all ales though. But I realised my favourites would probably always be a bit different, depending on the time of year I brewed. And some times of the year, I'd struggle to get into the brewing zone - for either an ale or lager yeast.

 

[Major BeerHump]

35 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

I made some really nice beers without temp control - all ales though. But I realised my favourites would probably always be a bit different, depending on the time of year I brewed. And some times of the year, I'd struggle to get into the brewing zone - for either an ale or lager yeast.

 

Yep, 100% the same for me as well. Mainly ales for me too. This summer was so hot though I couldn't brew between Nov and late March which is when I bought the fridge and Inkbird. I've done 2 brews with the new gear and using White Labs liquid yeast and have sampled the first of those - an Island Coconut Porter. As Otto summed it so well, this brew exhibits a much "cleaner profile". Having said that (and it is still only 3 weeks old), it doesn't seem to have quite the depth of flavour as the one I did in November. Definitely more refined though and think it will come on nicely over the next few weeks or so. Fingers crossed. The 2nd of those new batches (also an Island Coconut Porter) is due for tasting in a few days.

[elLachlano]

Ale kits for lagers and lager kits for ales. It's what I love about the craft.

I made about 4 batches of the 1st borough Lager last winter (in Melb) using mostly ambient temps and a ski jacket for consistency around that time of year. I do have a temp control fridge but was doing ales in that with a heat belt. I thought "I've got 3 FV's and it's cold enough out here to try a leapfrog of ale/lager ferment."
These always hovered around the 12C mark and the beer was great (hence the 4 batches). I'm hanging for the temps to drop so I can run this setup again.

I ended up not worrying about the 18C starting temp (guided by Otto and the forum) as I went and just pitched as cold as I could get it on the mix. I was also harvesting the W34/70 yeast from older batches and could easily overpitch. I would highly recommmend reusing the yeast on this recipe as it only got better. Just make sure you keep the hops out of it.

On the topic of hops, have a play around with them if you do more batches, as I reckon it's a great base to experiment with. The last one I did in winter still used the Hallertau Mittelfrueh on boil but I dry hopped with Topaz and Galaxy. It was devine!

In fact, I've just put a long-neck of this in the freezer to chill. You've inspired me.

[Major BeerHump]

11 minutes ago, elLachlano said:

Ale kits for lagers and lager kits for ales. It's what I love about the craft.

I made about 4 batches of the 1st borough Lager last winter (in Melb) using mostly ambient temps and a ski jacket for consistency around that time of year. I do have a temp control fridge but was doing ales in that with a heat belt. I thought "I've got 3 FV's and it's cold enough out here to try a leapfrog of ale/lager ferment."
These always hovered around the 12C mark and the beer was great (hence the 4 batches). I'm hanging for the temps to drop so I can run this setup again.

I ended up not worrying about the 18C starting temp (guided by Otto and the forum) as I went and just pitched as cold as I could get it on the mix. I was also harvesting the W34/70 yeast from older batches and could easily overpitch. I would highly recommmend reusing the yeast on this recipe as it only got better. Just make sure you keep the hops out of it. 

On the topic of hops, have a play around with them if you do more batches, as I reckon it's a great base to experiment with. The last one I did in winter still used the Hallertau Mittelfrueh on boil but I dry hopped with Topaz and Galaxy. It was devine!

In fact, I've just put a long-neck of this in the freezer to chill. You've inspired me.

Myyyy goodness! I'm learning more this afternoon about brewing than I've learned in the past 10 years! 

That's a very interesting tip about reusing the yeast from this batch. Unfortunately I have no idea about how to go about that. Any quick tips, or an article you could point me to?

Good to know it's a good platform for a bit of experimentation. I'm thinking of adding 150g or crystal malt to this brew as I like the caramel flavours it adds. Do you think that could work for this style of beer?

Thanks for the tips elLachlano and enjoy that long-neck! I think I'll go do the same. You've inspired me!

[elLachlano]

I've followed a few methods but I got lazy and worked out my own.

I simply add a few litres of cooled boiled water to the yeast cake after bottling and then let it settle out for 30mins or so before pouring ~2L of the middle layer (you can usually see 3 at this stage of settling) into a sanitised container (usually one that held the initial boiled water. Boiling water = sanitised) to refrigerate for24hrs+.

I then pour off most of the clear liquid and then shake up with what has settled to pour into a sanitised jar to label and keep in the fridge for next time. Good for 1 month at least. I've used older yeast than 1 month with great results.

I think it's the overpitch. At harvest, I have much more viable yeast than I need for 1 batch so can deal with a few thousand/million cells deteriorate over time in the fridge.

I've also read recommendations of not running batches over X amount of generations. Usually X = 7. I've never pushed this far with 1 strain.

[Major BeerHump]

Thank you very much for that. I really appreciate it!

I'll definitely give it a spin. I love learning something new that's attainable with limited brewing equipment. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hey Major

I leave about as much beer as yeast in the bottom of the fermenter.  Pick it up and swirl until it forms a nice creamy consistency.  Then I decant evenly into pre-sanitised jars via the fermenter tap.  This way I do not need to sanitise anything to scoop out the yeast.

I leave the lids slightly ajar (and pop them in the fridge) - Any CO2 can escape if necessary.  Makes them easier to open later on too.

I have been putting this yeast into two jars, but looking at some yeast calculators, the 200mls or so of yeast sediment is probably an overpitch. Might look to split it into three jars, even if I do not get around to re-using all three within a reasonable time. 

This is a 1L jar.  About 250ml of yeast and 450ml of beer.  I pitched it two weeks ago.  Straight out of the fridge when I was ready to pitch.  Carefully tipped off 3/4's of the beer first.  Swirled up the yeast and the remaining beer until it was a nice creamy consistency.  Then pitched into my fermenter.  Fine bubbles appeared on the surface in less than 6 hours.  1cm krausen within 24 hours.

It was a month in the fridge so some of the yeasties will have died off.  I might not get around to using it's brother beside it.  Six weeks would be about the longest I have kept harvested yeast before re-using it.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I use a different method to that; I make yeast starters and harvest from those. I'm guessing you don't have the equipment for them at the moment but if you're interested in reading about it, I've detailed what I do here:

 

[Major BeerHump]

Shamus and Otto, thanks for taking the time explaining your techniques. Not only does it seem I'll get better tasting beer using this process, but it saves more than a few $s per batch with price of the yeast at $12 a pop for the White Labs stuff. Plus having to use express post to get the yeast delivered ASAP. so it isn't exposed to heat

I've been plodding along getting quite good results for the most part. but have now been enlightened in the ways of how beer can be made much better without too much effort at all. Thank you!!

And thanks to everyone who's helped me get a better understanding of brewing in general. 

PS; I like your avatars. I'm a big Lemmy fan too. Who is that in yours Otto? Is it a young Keef or Jeff Beck or someone like that?

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's me, in Sydney about 5 years ago

[Major BeerHump]

Thought so!! 

[Shamus O'Sean]

I like Otto's method.  I just lack the equipment and organisational skills.

[Beerlust]

8 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It's me, in Sydney about 5 years ago

Bullshit! That picture could be taken almost any weekend! 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Hairy]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

Bullshit! That picture could be taken almost any weekend! 

Cheers,

Lusty.

He only ever looked cool when he was in Sydney.