Flameout Hop Additions

[MitchellScott]

G'Day guys 

I am wondering what sort of bitterness is extracted from hops when doing flameout additions. I ask as my S&W Pacific Ale clone is more bitter then expected but still is very enjoyable. It was brewed with 50g Galaxy @ flameout steeped for 20min then 50g dry hopped.

Also, is there any way of calculating IBU's of flameout additions with IanH's spreadsheet? There is no flameout option and the IBU's only increase when boil times are added.

I'm gonna be trying a 150 lashes clone soon and I wanna try and get the bitterness similar to the original at around 18.5IBU.


Thanks for your help, Mitch.

[karlos_1984]

I may be wrong, but I think the amount of bitterness extracted will depend on how quickly a batch of wort is cooled after flame out. I've also read on here previously that some people use 5 mins on ianH spreadsheet to get a rough idea on how many IBU a flameout addition would add to your beer.

I recently did a galaxy wheat based ale which is loosely aimed at replicating S&W, but I made a bigger batch this time and I wasn't able to chill it down as quickly as when I made a smaller batch of the same beer. Tasting samples of this one it appears more bitter than the previously made batch. I'm putting that down to the fact I couldn't chill the wort as quickly and I believe my FO additions have extracted more bitterness as a result 

[MitchellScott]

15 minutes ago, karlos_1984 said:

I may be wrong, but I think the amount of bitterness extracted will depend on how quickly a batch of wort is cooled after flame out. I've also read on here previously that some people use 5 mins on ianH spreadsheet to get a rough idea on how many IBU a flameout addition would add to your beer.

I recently did a galaxy wheat based ale which is loosely aimed at replicating S&W, but I made a bigger batch this time and I wasn't able to chill it down as quickly as when I made a smaller batch of the same beer. Tasting samples of this one it appears more bitter than the previously made batch. I'm putting that down to the fact I couldn't chill the wort as quickly and I believe my FO additions have extracted more bitterness as a result 

Sounds like the same thing I had...

I did cool mine relatively quick (in a small bathtub on cold water) but I did let it steep for 20mins before.

If the 5min boil is true that will be a good help to try and nail the IBU's.

[MitchellScott]

I guess another option is to boil the hops in a sock/chux cloth and then remove the hops as soon as your steep/boil times have been hit. Then it wouldn't matter how long it takes to cool the liquid.

Might try this.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It will matter somewhat as there are still alpha acids in the wort, but it probably won't have as much effect as leaving the hops in there.

[MitchellScott]

7 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It will matter somewhat as there are still alpha acids in the wort, but it probably won't have as much effect as leaving the hops in there.

Yeah I guess it will just lessen the effect... Other then that the only other option is the try and cool it as soon as possible but its hard to determine how long it will take to cool and that's obviously how I have gotten the extra bitterness in my current batch. I probably also let it steep too long.

Putting them in a sock I guess I can then pull the hops out as soon as I have finished the boil times then put the wort straight into cold water to cool. I guess that's as accurate as you can get.

[karlos_1984]

Doesn't help that it's galaxy either. I did FO with cascade and centennial before and it was nowhere near as bitter.

[ChristinaS1]

Are you using a kit as your base? What volume are you using for your boil?

Below 80C there is not much isomerization of alpha acids so my strategy is to wait with adding my "flameout" hops until the wort has cooled. With my boil volumes, which are  usually around 6-7L, adding the unhopped LME to the kettle immediately at flameout drops the temperature to near 80C, which is when I add my hops. Below 70C, there is no isomerization. 

But it is not just isomerized alpha acids that contribute to bitterness. I was reading the other day that oxidized alpha and beta acids, and polyphenols do too, but IBU calculators don't take them into account. Unlike unoxidized alpha acids, they are water soluble, so their bitterness gets released almost immediately when they hit boiling wort; as such they are more of a factor with short boils....The article I read didn't talk about what these other bittering factors do at hop stand temperatures, but I am guessing they still have significant impact.

Anyways, if you are finding your beer too bitter, maybe try reducing the size of your hop stand addition? 

Cheers,

Christina.

PS Link to the article: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/a-summary-of-factors-affecting-ibus/ See section 3.4.

[MitchellScott]

11 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Are you using a kit as your base? What volume are you using for your boil?

Below 80C there is not much isomerization of alpha acids so my strategy is to wait with adding my "flameout" hops until the wort has cooled. With my boil volumes, which are  usually around 6-7L, adding the unhopped LME to the kettle immediately at flameout drops the temperature to near 80C, which is when I add my hops. Below 70C, there is no isomerization. 

But it is not just isomerized alpha acids that contribute to bitterness. I was reading the other day that oxidized alpha and beta acids, and polyphenols do too, but IBU calculators don't take them into account. Unlike unoxidized alpha acids, they are water soluble, so their bitterness gets released almost immediately they hit boiling wort; as such they are more of a factor with short boils....The article I read didn't talk about what these other bittering factors do at hop stand temperatures, but I am guessing they still have significant impact.

If you are finding your beer too bitter, maybe try reducing the size of your hop stand addition? 

Cheers,

Christina.

PS Link to the article: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/a-summary-of-factors-affecting-ibus/ See section 3.4.

I'm using LME and WME as the base, so building the beer myself.

Boil volume is 10L usually.

When I re-do the S&W clone I will certainly reduce the amount of hops in the flameout addition/do it different. At the moment I am trying to workout what amounts/boils of each hop will be good for a 150 lashes clone. At the moment I'm looking at something like this but I am not sure. Then Ill do 15g dry hop of Nelson Sauvin, Amarillo, Willamette and Galaxy.

[ChristinaS1]

Not sure what WME means. Wheat Malt Extract?

I see you are using Ian's Spread sheet. Are you using 10L of 1.040 wort for your hop boil, then changing the boil volume on the spread sheet to 10L, and turning on the hop concentration factor? Also, are you changing the AA in the spread sheet to the actual AAs of the hops you buy.

Cheers,

Christina.

[headmaster]

The brewcipher sheet which I use, enables you to enter flameout hops, and also nominate the average temp they will experience and for how long. and calculates bitterness extracted. I have found this function to be very useful as a no chiller. Helps me decide whether I need to chuck the cube in the swimming pool or not. Can be downloaded from here: 

Brewcipher version 5.1 here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-9BMe0xDqppODg1NjVjM2QtNjBjMC00YmM5LTgzN2UtYmNhYzk0ZTg0YWNm

 

 

[MitchellScott]

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Not sure what WME means. Wheat Malt Extract?

I see you are using Ian's Spread sheet. Are you using 10L of 1.040 wort for your hop boil, then changing the boil volume on the spread sheet to 10L, and turning on the hop concentration factor? Also, are you changing the AA in the spread sheet to the actual AAs of the hops you buy.

Cheers,

Christina.

WME is Wheat Malt Extract yes.

On the original S&W Pacific Ale recipe I did I added 500g wheat malt to 10L of water and did the flameout in that. Is it necessary to bring the boiling wort to 1.040? I'm only new to the whole boiling hops etc so am learning... I was told that Hop Concentration Factor should only be used when doing small boils (below 6ish liters).

I haven't changed the hop AA values as I haven't picked up the hops yet so figured the defaults would give me a ballpark figure.
 

1 hour ago, headmaster said:

The brewcipher sheet which I use, enables you to enter flameout hops, and also nominate the average temp they will experience and for how long. and calculates bitterness extracted. I have found this function to be very useful as a no chiller. Helps me decide whether I need to chuck the cube in the swimming pool or not. Can be downloaded from here: 

Brewcipher version 5.1 here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-9BMe0xDqppODg1NjVjM2QtNjBjMC00YmM5LTgzN2UtYmNhYzk0ZTg0YWNm

 

 

Just downloaded it and had a look. Does it support extract brewing? Looks very technical to me hahaha

[headmaster]

it does support extract brewing actually. It looks a bit technical but not that difficult to use really.  I find it to be very accurate. 

 

[Norris!]

Did you adjust the boil size to 10l? If not that would throw off the IBUs.

[MitchellScott]

14 minutes ago, Norris! said:

Did you adjust the boil size to 10l? If not that would throw off the IBUs.

Yes boil size was 10L.

I guess another way I can ask is what sort of hop schedules and steep/cooling times would you guys do for a 150 lashes clone which has arillo, Nelson sauvin, Willamette and galaxy hops in it to achieve 18ish IBUs. 

Also what would you mix into the wort before putting the hops in? Last time I did 500g wheat malt extract but if getting it to 1.040 is necessary obviously that's not right. 

 

Cheers

[Norris!]

So on Ians spreadsheet near the bottom it says malt amount needed to hit 1.040, but a general rule is 100g for each liter of water, but I think it is closer to like 900-930g for a 10l boil, but that is a rough guess.

I am sorry I didn't tell you to use the proper amount of malt for the last batch to get it to 1.040 for the boil, the lower gravity would extract more bitterness than expected and possibly harsher also. 

[MitchellScott]

23 minutes ago, Norris! said:

So on Ians spreadsheet near the bottom it says malt amount needed to hit 1.040, but a general rule is 100g for each liter of water, but I think it is closer to like 900-930g for a 10l boil, but that is a rough guess.

I am sorry I didn't tell you to use the proper amount of malt for the last batch to get it to 1.040 for the boil, the lower gravity would extract more bitterness than expected and possibly harsher also. 

All good mate. Like I said the beer is still very tasty. 

Guessing this amount would be different for wheat malt? 

[Norris!]

You would use the same amount for wheat or for light dry malt, for a 10l boil it would need about 950g to have a gravity of 1.040ish.

[Norris!]

Also, so glad it turned it out tasty! Next time you can always try a Mexican cerveza kit and just do a flameout addition, light or after the temp has dropped below 80c, it will make a quick, easy and tasty drop that already has the low bitterness from the kit.

Norris

[ChristinaS1]

  5 hours ago, MitchellScott said:

... I was told that Hop Concentration Factor should only be used when doing small boils (below 6ish liters).

Who told you that? I have not heard that before. If you turn on HCF and fiddle with the volume of the boil, the spreadsheet adjusts the HCF, so going by that I am not sure it is true.... 

But with just 500gm of Wheat DME in 10L your OG would have been ~1.020, so all that is out the window.  Ian's calculator assumes a gravity of 1.040 for the boil, and as far as I can tell this value cannot be changed. You would have been getting more bitterness from the hops with a gravity of 1.020.

BTW, what was the total volume of your brew?

I agree with Norris about using the Mexican Cervesa kit as a base for a 23L batch. The bitterness is low enough that there is a fair bit of scope for late additions. You would not want to mix it to less than 23L as that would increase the bitterness.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Beer Baron]

10 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Below 80C there is not much isomerization of alpha acids so my strategy is to wait with adding my "flameout" hops until the wort has cooled.

This is exactly what I do. 

[MitchellScott]

12 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

  5 hours ago, MitchellScott said:

... I was told that Hop Concentration Factor should only be used when doing small boils (below 6ish liters).

Who told you that? I have not heard that before. If you turn on HCF and fiddle with the volume of the boil, the spreadsheet adjusts the HCF, so going by that I am not sure it is true.... 

But with just 500gm of Wheat DME in 10L your OG would have been ~1.020, so all that is out the window.  Ian's calculator assumes a gravity of 1.040 for the boil, and as far as I can tell this value cannot be changed. You would have been getting more bitterness from the hops with a gravity of 1.020.

BTW, what was the total volume of your brew?

I agree with Norris about using the Mexican Cervesa kit as a base for a 23L batch. The bitterness is low enough that there is a fair bit of scope for late additions. You would not want to mix it to less than 23L as that would increase the bitterness.

Cheers,

Christina.

Total volume was 23L :).

Will definitely keep the Cerveza kit in mind for a quick and easy brew. I generally prefer the extra effort and reward doing hop boils etc especially when you get it right. Makes me feel more involved in my brew I guess hahaha.

13 hours ago, Norris! said:

just do a flameout addition, light or after the temp has dropped below 80c

That's a great idea for flameout additions. I will definitely try that out next time.

I guess for my next batch I will use hop socks and pull the hops out as soon as it hits 0min, then do my flameout additions at 80C. And ensure the wort is at 1.040. Hopefully gets me the result I'm looking for :).

[MitchellScott]

I think this is what I'll go with, will see how it goes :). Have left the IBU's from the boil a little lower then expected so that if a little more bitterness is extracted while it cools it shouldn't matter.

[ChristinaS1]

Mitchell, your IBUs are just 14 and your BU:GU ratio is just 0.35. That would not be a balanced beer.  You either need a bittering charge or to use more way more hops. Most beers benefit from at least a small bittering charge.

You never answered my question about where you heard about it not being necessary to turn on the HCF for 10L boils. Unless it was from Ian H himself, not sure I would believe it. My gut is telling me that unless you are doing a full volume boil, the HCF should be turned on. Lusty, if you are reading this, what do you think?

Cheers,

Christina.

[MitchellScott]

5 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Mitchell, your IBUs are just 14 and your BU:GU ratio is just 0.35. That would not be a balanced beer.  You either need a bittering charge or to use more way more hops. Most beers benefit from at least a small bittering charge.

You never answered my question about where you heard about it not being necessary to turn on the HCF for 10L boils. Unless it was from Ian H himself, not sure I would believe it. My gut is telling me that unless you are doing a full volume boil, the HCF should be turned on. Lusty, if you are reading this, what do you think?

Cheers,

Christina.

To be honest I don't even know what a BU:GU ratio is, and what is good haha. Please explain

It was in another post, I'd have to search for it. But I am happy to turn it on if it should be on.