Cooper Fermenter

[Snap]

Morning everyone,

 

I bought 5 Cooper Fermenters so I put down a brew using all of them & 1 old style air lock fermenter.

Well every brew in the new Coopers Fermenters is sour like vinegar and there were white bubbles floating around in the wort prior to bottling. 

The brew in the air lock fermenter is just fine ?

I have changed nothing in last 3-4 years of brewing our Coopers Draught. What could have happened ??

Throwing away 160 Tally's nearly made me cry !

[Otto Von Blotto]

Were they cleaned and sanitised properly? 

I have two airlock fermenters but I use them in a way that mimics the Coopers ones. The airlocks and grommets are removed and the hole taped over. The lid is backed off slightly to allow gas to vent. Never had a problem. 

[thebeerpig]

Vinegar flies maybe? A forum member awhile back said he was having trouble with these flies finding their way into his brew through small gaps between the lid and fermenter.

Many years ago when I was brewing in a grapevine covered back shed, I used to find the little buggers floating in my airlocks during grape ripening season.

[Snap]

I am very used to dealing with cleanliness & bacteria as a trained fisherman & certified food handler so no problem there. Never had an issue ever before ?

The only thing different was the containers which is baffling me.

I have put another batch down x 6 & 1 is a coopers fermenter with the lid handles cut off, drilled a hole in lid and installed an airlock then threw the collar away and then glad wrapped the lid to the container to stop oxygen or fruit fly getting in ?

See how it goes.

We are in Nth Qld so quite hot up here maybe the heat had something to do with it ???

[Beer Baron]

What temperatures were you brewing at??

[Titan]

And how long were they in the fermenter?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm sensing a theme here. In the other thread about these fermenters both folks having issues were using that pink stain shit to clean the fermenters. Not many use it anymore because better products for the task have taken over.

Maybe ditch that and see how things go. Try cleaning with sodium percarbonate, or PBW or something, even nappy soakers. Then rinse off and spray all equipment with an acid based sanitiser, or iodine based. 

If you don't already, get some temperature control. Fermenting in ambient conditions in FNQ isn't gonna produce a great beer. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Snap]

21 hours ago, Beer Baron said:

What temperatures were you brewing at??

In summer here, brewing at around 28 -30 degrees at most in room but is 32-26 with 50-70 % humidity outside, and I have to use water early in morning to make up the wort because it is too hot during the day & into the night ( cold shower is warm, not cold here in summer ), can not brew all summer as it is just too hot, so I try to work around the weather with cooler days like raining / cloudy. We do most of our brewing in Autumn , Winter & early Spring before temps get too outrageous. Best we have done so far was 72 milk crates of Tally's in the bank, but still ran out in summer so might have to up the bank deposit to maybe 90-100 crates. Yes we like our cold home brew up here   

I have found it best to leave in fermentor for around 12 - 14 days so as all the yeast has settled & the beer comes out crystal clear and everyone that has tried our beer have liked it except for 2 out of 25 that have tried it. I have even converted a few to start brewing which is good.

When cleaning we have always rinsed out the fermenters then soaked with the Pink & rinsed out & left to dry in direct sunlight for 5 hours at least. Our cleaning program has never let us down & remember the 5 effected fermenters were brand new.  The brew that was in the air lock fermenter is fine as I tried it yesterday from that batch, 2 cartons out of 12  

Our beers are definitely brew better in the colder months but we make do and will be going hard these cooler months coming ahead.

Our next batch of 5 air locks & the converted Coopers is 1 week old today, looking at the wort which is what I like about the Cooper Fermenter there are no floaties,  the colour is looking a nice beer colour on top half and still cloudy bottom half,  looking like our 12 - 14 day bottling schedule is the right way for us, for the beer cleaning up better than bottling after 7 days. We did start ay 7 days brewing but my wife's father was the one who put me into his knowledge of brewing which is why we started experimenting with brew times and he was right on the money and he was a Coopers Draught Man as " rest his sole ".

Just looked at my records & we have been brewing for around 5 years now & this is the first issue we have had so not doing too bad.

Thanks again everyone for letting me pick your brains, it is good to exchange thoughts and ideas.

Really appreciate it.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Snap

[Beer Baron]

Hi @Snap 

I agree with changing your cleaner and sanitiser and see how that goes. Buying a bulk bag of sodium percarbonate will last a long time and so will a bottle of Starsan. 

Brewing at 28-30 is far too hot. Most ales should be fermented at 18-20 degrees. I suggest getting a fridge and temperature controller which would cost less than $100 in most cases and will drastically improve the taste of your beer. 

Leaving the fermenter for 12-14 days is a good idea. Most of the people do that on here and it does have its benefits. 

Good luck with your brewing!!

[The Captain!!]

Gday Snap, 

Im loving your enthusiastic output of beer mate. That’s a massive amount to have stored and to be brewing. 

I would look at how much you go through and brew with a large chest freezer and temp control for the freezer. 

I have a smaller chest freezer that fits two FVs very comfortably. Normally I only need one FV in at a time but sometimes my mates come round and will clean me out in a night. So I have enough room to stock up when needed. 

Doing this you’ll be able to brew all year round and will negate the reason to stock that many bottles. Use the money it would have cost you to get more tallies and buy a freezer. 

Your beer quality will be so much better and you won’t need to stress about running out.

either that or change to a yeast that is more heat tolerant. So you can brew without the phenols and what not.

However saying that, it’s your beer so you’ll do whatever you want to do. 

Best of luck

Captain

[Aussiekraut]

@Snap

I feel for you but as mentioned before, the temp is the killer. It's odd that it's the new, no-airlock FVs causing the trouble though. I have a couple of small batch 8.5l Coopers "Craft Beer" FV, and they confused the living daylight out of me as from past experience, you need an airlock. The thing is that these FV aren't completely airtight and therefore don't need an airlock. Ideally, the pressure inside the FV prevents it from sucking in contaminated air, as the pressure inside the FV is higher than outside. In the end, not dissimilar to an airlock. Some of the rather experienced guys here, notably Otto von Blotto, don't use airlocks at all and basically go the way the newer Coopers FVs go (no AL and don't tighten the FV lid to make it airtight).

I'm in SEQ and currently also suffer the heat problems. I do not yet have a brew fridge and controller but aim for it to overcome the QLD weather. Having 30+ days pretty much all year so far isn't helping if you don't have temp controlled conditions. Despite the wet towels and fans employed to help. I've had a few cases of some sort of infection in my FVs but I think I figured out what the problem was (maybe it's related to yours?). The coolest room in the house atm is the bathroom and that's where all my FVs are sitting.  Being a wet cell, the bathroom probably is full of bacteria, mold and wild yeast, especially in the hotter summer temps. Any batch, I took a sample of while an airlock was fitted and I didn't cover the AL hole when taking a sample, showed some signs of infection at bottling time. Every FV I opened in order to take a hop bag or add one to, showed signs of infection. 

So my theory atm is simply that the bathroom is probably the most unsuitable place for opening FVs or taking samples (it'll suck back some of the water in the AL, water which may have been infected with bacteria, molds or wild yeast). To test the theory, I took a few samples while covering the AL hole with my finger and the samples do not show any sign of infection on the bench after 3 days, where samples taken, where the air is allowed to flow back into the FV, are showing signs of trouble after just a couple of days. So don't ever let water from the airlock flow back into the FV. EVER!

But most importantly, keep your temps down. 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Aussiekraut

[Titan]

These kits are a science that coopers have already done for you. They give you a timeline based on a temp of 21c they expect these to be done or very close to being done. At higher temps these will ferment out quicker, perhaps 4 to five days. Coopers then say to bottle. I think the issue here is the beer is being left for upto 14 days at high temperature with no co2 blanket to protect it from infection. My advice is bottle after 7 days and allow the trub to drop in bottle.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'd agree somewhat. There's no need to leave it in the fermenter for 14 days if it ferments out in 4. But I don't believe in this magical CO2 blanket. It might stay there during active fermentation while CO2 is being actively produced but once it stops there's nothing to stop air from getting into the fermenter and mixing with the CO2, even if the lid isn't opened.

[Titan]

12 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'd agree somewhat. There's no need to leave it in the fermenter for 14 days if it ferments out in 4. But I don't believe in this magical CO2 blanket. It might stay there during active fermentation while CO2 is being actively produced but once it stops there's nothing to stop air from getting into the fermenter and mixing with the CO2, even if the lid isn't opened.

There was one fermenter with an airlock and the beer survived. I can only assume that this was protected by the co2 locked in there.

[Otto Von Blotto]

With those ones air ingress would be a lot more difficult, but not so much with the Coopers ones. 

Mind you, opening it to add a dry hop or whatever will disperse the CO2 anyway, whatever fermenter you're using. 

[Snap]

Thanks everyone, great to hear from you all.

Day 10 and brews looking very good like normal, still have condensation inside lids and in air locks. Brew in Cooper tank is becoming very clear and looks like I will bottle in next 2 days. The brew in the Cooper tank was still cloudy on day 7 and it has cleared up a great deal in last 2 days which is why I am hesitant to bottle to early. I have spoke to other brewers in areas locally and they have reported similar problems to the ones I have just recently had. Couple blamed fruit fly infestation and others simply the heat which killed the yeast ?

One thing that did happen when starting the brews, was 1 tank was frothing madly out of the airlock after 24 hours when all others were good, all the same measurements and process so it makes me wonder why the difference.

Does Coopers supply a yeast that is heat tolerant ?

I work 27 days on & on my 27 days off, I am usually doing other work so that is why I brew the amounts I do. It would be good to brew as you all have said in temperature regulated space as it sounds like they way to go. Will look into that in future for sure so thanks for the ideas. I go back to work on Sunday, so when I finish I will be able to try the new brew and advise on how it went. Will try to put another 6 on by Sunday & the wife then bottles it for me when I am away.

We have found that the beers are of excellent quality after being stored for about 3 months & longer. Not that they last that long lately  .

Stay safe & have fun everyone.

Thanks again. Enjoy your coldies.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Unless the brews are somehow getting up above 40 degrees, the yeast won't be killed. Even if the yeast were killed, it would only cause infection if this happened when they were pitched. After fermentation it doesn't matter, except for carbonation in the bottles of course. 

If you are able to get some decent temperature control I can guarantee you'll never go back to fermenting at ambient temperature after tasting the results. It really does improve it.

[jackgym]

On 3/29/2019 at 8:49 AM, thebeerpig said:

Vinegar flies maybe? A forum member awhile back said he was having trouble with these flies finding their way into his brew through small gaps between the lid and fermenter.

Many years ago when I was brewing in a grapevine covered back shed, I used to find the little buggers floating in my airlocks during grape ripening season.

I noticed a couple of small insects (maybe vinegar flies) hovering around the fermenter when checking the brew so gave the inside of the fridge a quick spray. Next time I opened the fridge door 3 were lying dead inside.  Now before opening the door I spray around the fridge beforehand.  

[Snap]

2 Brews later and all good.

I did have one fermentor froth up a lot when put brew down and marked the 2 cartons when bottling. Yes it was the same thing that horrible vinegar taste but the other 5 fermenters were all good. All cleaned the same and brewed the same so I am still no more educated on how it happened. Obviously a germ of some sort.

Since that the next lot were all good as I tasted them when bottling.

The weather is a lot cooler now so brewing hard. Have 28 cartons in the bank now and all new bottles and cleaning the fermenters like a mad man working up a thirst.

The Cooper Bottles are a lot better than previously bought and very happy about that. :-)

Happy Ales all.

 

 

[Aussiekraut]

I now seem to have a similar problem with a Coopers FV. The last two batches it was used for are, let's say problematic.

The first of the two has been in the bottle for 2 weeks and there is no sign of carbonation. The PET bottles are as limp as they were when I bottled and opening one of the glass bottles, there was a slight "fluff" and not a single gas bubble rising. Just flat, horrible beer.

Yesterday I bottled a Canadian Blonde and when I tasted it, it was suitable for a nice salad but I don't think the beer will be drinkable. I've tasted nicer tasting vinegar to be honest. 

Both batches fermented out nicely and there was nothing out of the ordinary floating in the FV. They also hadn't been opened prior to bottling.

Brew temps were ranging between 20 and 22C and in both cases, the FV and everything that would come in contact with the brew had been soaking in sodium percarbonate for 24 hours. All was thoroughly rinsed and sanitised, including taking the tap apart and sanitising all parts of it. 

My cleaning regime is the same for the Coopers FV as it is for my other FV I'm alternating with. I have no issues with brews in that one, only the Coopers one seems to give me grief. 

Any idea what may be going on? 

 

[PaddyBrew2]

The bottles taking a bit longer to firm up is normal given the drop in temps. Might take a couple of weeks longer. Assuming all have been primed and lids fully sealed etc

cant help you with the vinegar taste. That sucks 

[Detroit D]

Hi Aussiekraut

I cant help you there either except that I recently had a brew that had the sour taste, with a Coopers FV. I normally bottle within 7-8 days but I used a different Yeast (Windsor) than the kit yeast and it took 15 days. I don't blame the fermenter, I think I have gotten something wrong with sanitising or the fact it took so long to brew that it got a germ of sort in there, maybe at dry hopping?

so disappointing come bottling day and you have a little taste and all is not good...

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said:

The first of the two has been in the bottle for 2 weeks and there is no sign of carbonation. The PET bottles are as limp as they were when I bottled and opening one of the glass bottles, there was a slight "fluff" and not a single gas bubble rising. Just flat, horrible beer.

Yesterday I bottled a Canadian Blonde and when I tasted it, it was suitable for a nice salad but I don't think the beer will be drinkable. I've tasted nicer tasting vinegar to be honest. 

Any idea what may be going on? 

 

Needs time and warmer storage?

I bottled a Hopgobbler style nearly 3 weeks ago and some PETs are still not carbed - others are. The tester at 7 days bottling was awful, I thought it was going down the sink. Nearly 3 weeks later the carbed ones are great, a nicely bittered mocha ale. 

I suspect 3 things:

• I c crashed and syphon-bottled this brew, so my bottles from the top have hardly any sediment in them = lots less yeast. 
• It's barely 18C in my garage, along with less yeast for the 2nd ferment.
• My 7 day tester was the last bottle squeezed out nearest the trub, so most of the harsh flavours were in there. 

[Aussiekraut]

5 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

Needs time and warmer storage?

I bottled a Hopgobbler style nearly 3 weeks ago and some PETs are still not carbed - others are. The tester at 7 days bottling was awful, I thought it was going down the sink. Nearly 3 weeks later the carbed ones are great, a nicely bittered mocha ale. 

I suspect 3 things:

• I c crashed and syphon-bottled this brew, so my bottles from the top have hardly any sediment in them = lots less yeast. 
• It's barely 18C in my garage, along with less yeast for the 2nd ferment.
• My 7 day tester was the last bottle squeezed out nearest the trub, so most of the harsh flavours were in there. 

I don't know if it is too cold for the bottles. I wouldn't think so . They're in the house and subject to current Brisbane indoor temps, so not too cold. Around the 20 mark I suppose. A batch bottled the week prior and one the week after (both from the 2nd FV) are a lot more carbonated, although the younger of the two isn't as far as I thought it would be yet either.

There is almost no sediment in the bottles. I always use 1 or 2 white glass bottles, so I can see what's happening and there doesn't seem to be much viable yeast in there, if any.

Usually, I leave batches in the FV for 2 weeks. They tend to ferment out in a week or so and then get to clean up a little. 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Vinegar is usually a sign of acetobacter. 

Flat bottles is probably just a temperature thing. Depending on where you are it will drop below 20 overnight in your house. Ours has been going down to about 15 on the coldest nights. My parents place would drop as low as 10/11 indoors. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto