BrewBilly Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I am new to temperature controlled brewing and will be bottling the brew when it is finished. If I cold crash the brew for a couple of days before I bottle it, will there still be enough yeast in the brew to react with the carbonation sugar to ensure there is a head on the beer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenyinthewestofsydney Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Yes there will still be plenty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Yes but you will get more of the benefits of cold crashing if you do it for 4-5 days rather than 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I get that crashing a big thing in brewing circles, but there are a lot of brewers and brew shops that say it's a waste of time, unless clear beer is the only aim. If you're dropping the yeast to clear the beer, then surely the flavour is affected, as less yeast goes in the bottle. Isn't this one of the things that makes Cooper beers what they are, the cloudiness from yeast sediment? Carbonation could also be affected as more of the yeast settles down in the trub, much of which is discarded. This is moot if kegging and gassing, as you're not doing a secondary bottle ferment.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popo the Reprobate Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I guess it depends what you're doing it for. I cold crash to drop the dry hop matter out of the beer. It can lead to a couple of problems if you don't - clogged bottling wand, gushing bottles. It does help with clarity and reduce the amount of sediment in the bottle. If you are after cloudiness and yeast sediment and yeast character in your beer, cold crashing is probably not as important. I haven't run into a carbonation problem from lack of yeast even after a long cold crash. It's a pretty useful process and I do it for for nearly every batch, but it's definitely not essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I don't think the flavour is negatively affected. Even without a cold crash you can still leave the sediment in the bottle when pouring a glass. And not everyone who home brews is making Coopers clones. Personally I don't like the way it tastes with yeast all through it, or the affect it has in other ways. Carbonation is unaffected. It may take a slightly longer time but otherwise there is no difference. To say it's a waste of time is pretty narrow minded. In lager brewing it's an essential part of the product even though it's more of a slow ramp down than a crash. Without this lagering period, the beer isn't anywhere near as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I tend to agree with Otto here, apart from when he said lagers are any good ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 In the context of carbonation it is dependent on the amount of sugar not the amount of yeast ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smash Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said: In the context of carbonation it is dependent on the amount of sugar not the amount of yeast ... But you need yeast to eat the sugars to carbonate in the first place. Cold crashing drops out yeast (or hop matter, etc) from suspension, meaning less gets bottled, resulting in more time to carbonate in bottles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 So you need both sugar and yeast to carbonate beer. Youll have enough yeast in your beer regardless of a cold crash. I have in the past cold crashed for 15 days. Bottled and it was still carbonated and ready to drink in 7 days. If that isn’t reasonable I feel that patience is not a virtue of yours. Ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I have cold crashed for 5 weeks and had no problem carbonating the bottled beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Smash said: But you need yeast to eat the sugars to carbonate in the first place. Cold crashing drops out yeast (or hop matter, etc) from suspension, meaning less gets bottled, resulting in more time to carbonate in bottles there is still yeast in suspension in the brew .... the yeast that don't floc are too small to fall out in the short time frame ... if 99.9% of yeast floc and fall that will leave 0.1% of the yeast ... if there are say 200 billion yeast cells in the brew that leaves 2 billion cells in suspension or 33 million per stubby ... and as yeast use binary fission to duplicate that 33 million will be 66 milion after the 1st reproduction cycle, 132 million after the second, 264 million after the 3rd and will be over 1 billion by the 5th reproductive cycle .... it is the amount of sugar that limits the growth once all the sugar is consumed they will stop reproducing and settle .... that is why even though I cold crash and fine there is still a significant layer of sediment in the bottom of all my bottles after secondary fermentation ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I've done the same as hairy without issue too. I was also led to believe that the yeast don't just keep multiplying until all fermentables are consumed, rather that they multiply to the extent that there are enough of them to consume it. There wouldn't be much multiplication needed to ferment a few grams of sugar in a bottle. Generally a brew is pitched with about 150-200 billion cells at the start so it probably multiplies 4 or 5 times that to ferment the brew out. I definitely noticed a reduction in bottle sediment after I began cold crashing, and that was without the use of finings. Instead of a 2-3mm layer, it was more of a light dusting. I use finings now and in the kegs there's bugger all sediment when they're empty, but I don't prime kegs either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said: here wouldn't be much multiplication needed to ferment a few grams of sugar in a bottle Yep, it was more of an academic exercise to explain why the number of yeast cells in the bottle wasn't really an issue .... theoretically 1 yeast cell is enough because when sugar is present they will metabolise the sugar and yeast colony will grow exponentially .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 9 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: To say it's a waste of time is pretty narrow minded. In lager brewing it's an essential part of the product even though it's more of a slow ramp down than a crash. Without this lagering period, the beer isn't anywhere near as good. Lagers are pretty specific though, aren't they, as they use a different yeast. Their aim is to produce a clear beer that is already brewed slower at lower temperatures, with a yeast that grows slower and settles sooner, and is then stored for longer. The whole brew is virtually a cold crash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 17 hours ago, Lab Rat said: ...Carbonation could also be affected as more of the yeast settles down in the trub, much of which is discarded. This is moot if kegging and gassing, as you're not doing a secondary bottle ferment.. Moot point arguing yeast with "Yeast Daddy", Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Lab Rat said: Lagers are pretty specific though, aren't they, as they use a different yeast. Their aim is to produce a clear beer that is already brewed slower at lower temperatures, with a yeast that grows slower and settles sooner, and is then stored for longer. The whole brew is virtually a cold crash They are but the lagering period isn't solely about clarity, it also noticeably improves the flavour. I have had kegs on tap too early due to a lack of beer available, which improved over the time they lasted. The slow ramp down makes the yeast clean up at the beginning and the extended time kept chilled drops other things out, refining and smoothing the flavour. With other styles, not everyone likes a heap of yeast in their beer whatever style it is, and cold crashing helps remove some of it, along with other particulates such as hop matter if a commando dry hop is employed. Where bright clarity is desired it also facilitates using finings if required, as some of them don't work at ferment temps. It may also work in a way similar to lagers to refine the flavour, but I'd suggest not as much. That's why I said it's narrow minded to suggest that it's a waste of time unless you're after clarity, because it is done for more reasons than that. But then again some brew shops aren't exactly known for great advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I've had lots of varying advice - from other brewers and shops - even brewers running shops contradict each other. Much like opinions here. I try stuff and see if things work or makes a difference I feel is worth any extra effort. People pass comments based on their experience, those who said crashing wasn't worth it were talking about ales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, Lab Rat said: I've had lots of varying advice - from other brewers and shops - even brewers running shops contradict each other. Much like opinions here. I try stuff and see if things work or makes a difference I feel is worth any extra effort. People pass comments based on their experience, those who said crashing wasn't worth it were talking about ales. My personal view is that it is worth it for ales. Just my preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Depends on how you dry hop. If you dry hop commando style, you have to take measures to prevent the hop matter from getting into the bottles. Measures include racking to secondary, cold crashing, and possibly finings. If you contain your hops in something, there is no need to do any of those things. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I cold crash everything including stouts. At the same time, do whatever works for you, because hey, it’s your beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I dry hop commando style, so I do cold crash, typically for 7 days. One thing I have not quite figured out is when to add them in relation to the cold crash. Obviously the hops are still in contact with the wort during the cold crash, so you have to take that time into account somehow. You want to strike a balance between extracting aroma and avoiding grassy flavours from extended contact with the hops. There is much less aroma extraction at near freezing compared to fermentation temperature. I have experimented with adding the hops just as I turn the thermostat down (cold hopping) but find the aroma very muted that way, which kind of defeats the purpose of dry hopping. Nowadays I usually add them 2 days before starting the cold crash, which seems like a reasonable compromise between getting good aroma extraction and controlling grassy notes. Recently I read about a commercial brewery doing the cold crash in two steps: first turning down to 13C for a couple of days, so that aroma can still be extracted from the hops, and then going down to near freezing. I find it an interesting idea and am trying it as we speak, with my current brew: so two days at 13C, then 5 days at 0.3C, instead of seven days at 0.3C. I am still adding the hops two days before turning the temperature down. I am curious if I will eek out a bit more aroma from my dry hops this way. BTW, my dry hop volume is typically 1gm/L, which I know is way less than most people use., but that is what I like. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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