ChristinaS1 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Hi all, Came across a reference to this study by the University of Oregon on FWH on Stan Hieronymous's blog: https://youngscientistssymposium.org/YSS2016/pdf/Hahn.pdf Spoiler alert: a sensory panel of 40 could not reliably distinguish between a beer with a standard 60 minute addition and one that had been FWH for 100 minutes, and then boiled. Note that this result is similar to an experiment done by Brulosophy: http://brulosophy.com/2017/09/25/the-first-wort-hop-effect-pt-2-first-wort-hop-vs-60-minute-addition-exbeeriment-results/ In other words, FWH beers do not seem to have "smoother," "finer", or more pleasant bitterness, and there was no preference for the FWH beers. Note that in the Brulosophy experiment the sensory testing happened after two weeks in the keg. The Oregon study did not report the age of the beers at the time of sensory testing. In addition to the sensory testing, the University of Oregon also ran a number of objective lab tests. The two beers were very similar, but there was one difference: the FWH had a higher level of total polyphenols (TPP). Several polyphenols are antioxidant in nature: flavan-3-ols and their condensed products, and proanthocyanidins. So I am speculating that a FWH beer stays fresh tasting for longer, and that hop flavour is retained for longer, which is the whole reason I am experimenting with short FWH; I am trying to get the flavour of late hop and dry hop additions to last longer in the bottle. But given that the Oregon study used a 100 minute pre-boil steep, and I am using just a 30 minute pre-boil steep, I may not be getting much of an increase in TPP, or much bang for my time and effort buck. Unfortunately nobody seems to be looking at that the anti-aging possibilities of FWH. I will be curious to see how my SFWH English Bitter ages, and also Lusty's. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Hey Christina, Great links and reads. I have actually read both of these before and found it quite interesting due to my experience in FWH to be more pleasant than just the same as a 60 minute boil but hey, that could be my mind playing tricks on me for swaying my decision to “think” it’s better. Either way, look forward to hearing how both yours and Lusty’s goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, The Captain!! said: Hey Christina, Great links and reads. I have actually read both of these before and found it quite interesting due to my experience in FWH to be more pleasant than just the same as a 60 minute boil but hey, that could be my mind playing tricks on me for swaying my decision to “think” it’s better. Either way, look forward to hearing how both yours and Lusty’s goes The study has no impact on your personal taste and when you are brewing for yourself. Taste is subjective and if you enjoy FWH beers then that is what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 On 3/19/2019 at 10:45 AM, Hairy said: Taste is subjective and if you enjoy FWH beers then that is what matters. It's an interesting point actually. If you THINK something tastes better, even if it actually doesn't as determined by double-blind testing etc then I guess if you've simply convinced yourself it is better then for you... it's better. That then sets an interesting challenge for me to try when it comes to my not-so-great brews: finding the right psychological tricks and tools to convince myself that they in fact taste great... and if I am successful and actually believe myself they will then taste...well, great and I will never have to worry about making bad beer ever again! I tried FWH a couple of times in the past and wasn't aware of any obvious difference so I haven't bothered with it since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I FWH with 10g of high AA hop like Simcoe, after temp lift to 78c at BIAB drain, about 30m before boil. I do the same for every batch now; 30L boil. I then do a 2m, FO, and later I dry hop. Over time I have found that I have pushed the hops to these later stages which is giving me my best all grain Mid Strength PA smoothness, balance and taste. I am drinking bottles at 2-4 weeks these days. I now have "go to" summer beers, and now I am looking forward to working up my slightly bigger winter beers. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 On 3/18/2019 at 11:31 PM, ChristinaS1 said: ...Unfortunately nobody seems to be looking at that the anti-aging possibilities of FWH. I will be curious to see how my SFWH English Bitter ages, and also Lusty's. That's mainly the space I'm in with the technique. In anything I've personally spoken about with the FWH technique, I don't remember suggesting it will improve aroma. From my own experiences & experimentation flavour stability over a more enduring time period appears to be it's major plus over standard longer boil additions. The other plus I feel the technique offers is a better retention of flavour by weight vs typical hop schedules designed for more pronounced hop flavour. My recent brew shortening the boil time after the steep is an attempt at retaining a little more flavour intensity that would normally be lost over a longer standard boil. That may come at a cost of flavour longevity though. Who knows. This current SFWH brew I'm drinking from the keg has me questioning a number of things atm because it is soo delicious & drinks really well for such an uncomplicated beer. I'm buying commercial beer just so I will leave it alone for a bit. I'm so impressed with the beer on a number of levels, it may have me lessen the amount of partial mash brews I do in the future. Cheers & good brewing, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 4 hours ago, Beerlust said: That's mainly the space I'm in with the technique. In anything I've personally spoken about with the FWH technique, I don't remember suggesting it will improve aroma. From my own experiences & experimentation flavour stability over a more enduring time period appears to be it's major plus over standard longer boil additions. The other plus I feel the technique offers is a better retention of flavour by weight vs typical hop schedules designed for more pronounced hop flavour. My recent brew shortening the boil time after the steep is an attempt at retaining a little more flavour intensity that would normally be lost over a longer standard boil. That may come at a cost of flavour longevity though. Who knows. This current SFWH brew I'm drinking from the keg has me questioning a number of things atm because it is soo delicious & drinks really well for such an uncomplicated beer. I'm buying commercial beer just so I will leave it alone for a bit. I'm so impressed with the beer on a number of levels, it may have me lessen the amount of partial mash brews I do in the future. Cheers & good brewing, Lusty. Your SFWH beer was not a partial mash? I forgot about that....That is high praise indeed, that you would consider doing more all extract brews. While the Oregon study and Brulosophy's experiment seem to put to bed the notion that the bitterness from FWH is "finer" / "smoother", or more pleasant than that of a standard 60 minute boil, the results could be different if the boil is only 20 minutes long, as there is less time for oxidation to occur. What is your impression of the bitterness so far Lusty? Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 22 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: Your SFWH beer was not a partial mash? I forgot about that....That is high praise indeed, that you would consider doing more all extract brews. Yeah I just added a 300gm grain steep of caramalt & used a little dextrose to offset it. 22 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: What is your impression of the bitterness so far Lusty? Smooooooooooooooth. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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