Double sized batches

[Malter White]

Lusty and Titan were spot on with the extra weight. With the ferment temperature a little high I decided to put the FV into a tray of cool water. That was an interesting challenge to say the least. I got there but it was quite an effort.

(Further note to self: put FV in tray before adding the water)

[BlackSands]

2 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

Lusty and Titan were spot on with the extra weight.

I did double-batches (60 litres) many years ago when I was in my 20's.  I seemed to manage the size and weight back then.  Now, it would be a prolapsed disc for sure! 

[Malter White]

2 hours ago, BlackSands said:

I did double-batches (60 litres) many years ago when I was in my 20's.  I seemed to manage the size and weight back then.  Now, it would be a prolapsed disc for sure! 

I know what you mean, BS.
I'm in my 50s now but I'm a large fella so I can handle a bit of lifting. Having said that, I think I just need to manage my process smarter and I should be ok. ie.
1. Put the swamp cooling tray down first.
2. Put the FV in place before adding the bulk of the water.
3. Have more than 6 litres of fridged water on hand for temp control.
It's all a learning curve but enjoyable at the same time.

[Titan]

Also have to think how you get a sample out of it..

[Malter White]

6 hours ago, Titan said:

Also have to think how you get a sample out of it..

Thanks for the input, Titan. I'm all over that one. My swamp cooler tray is quite low and sits below the tap. I just have to top it up with water frequently.

Cheers.

[mkinadl]

I'm on my 1st 60l double coopers lager tonight but only had the 2 packs of yeast - so I'm wondering if you have an update for me?

I also collected 2x trub from my 2x 30l but they were woolies brand lager & I didn't boil the container & didn't decant the layers - I poured the trub into 2x plastic decor containers that might not be airtight (I sanitised them by leaving them to soak in StellarSan. Are they worth keeping? Should I dump one into the 60l fermenter tomorrow?

Edited September 14, 2021 by mkinadl

[Malter White]

@mkinadl The two packs of yeast will be enough. I've used just two packs of yeast before and it worked OK. That was for 46 litres in the 60 litre vessel.

I wouldn't risk using those containers of trub. They could introduce an infection to your beer.

If you're concerned about not having enough yeast you could make a yeast starter with the packet yeast to increase the number of cells before pitching.

Edited September 14, 2021 by MUZZY

[Classic Brewing Co]

55 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

@mkinadl The two packs of yeast will be enough. I've used just two packs of yeast before and it worked OK. That was for 46 litres in the 60 litre vessel.

I wouldn't risk using those containers of trub. They could introduce an infection to your beer.

If you're concerned about not having enough yeast you could make a yeast starter with the packet yeast to increase the number of cells before pitching.

Yuk, I would definitely chuck the stuff in those 2 containers.  As Muzzy says you would risk infection.  They certainly don't look healthy.

[Shamus O'Sean]

@mkinadl, contrary to our learned colleagues, if the Decor containers were soaked in Stellarsan, they should have been fine for storing yeast.  They do not need to be boiled.

A couple of other things though:

1. The Original Series Coopers Lager does not come with a lager yeast.  It is an ale yeast.  As Muzzy says, the two packs with be fine for a double batch, though.
2. I strongly suspect that the yeast that comes with the Woolies Lager cans may not be a lager yeast either.  However, I do not know it for a fact.  If the instructions said to brew around 20°C, then it is probably an ale yeast.  If they said to brew around 13°C, then it is probably a lager yeast.

If each of those containers was from a 30 litre batch, they will each be enough for a separate 60 litre batch.

Sorry if my reply is too late and you have turfed them.

 

[Malter White]

16 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

@mkinadl, contrary to our learned colleagues, if the Decor containers were soaked in Stellarsan, they should have been fine for storing yeast.  They do not need to be boiled.

A couple of other things though:

1. The Original Series Coopers Lager does not come with a lager yeast.  It is an ale yeast.  As Muzzy says, the two packs with be fine for a double batch, though.
2. I strongly suspect that the yeast that comes with the Woolies Lager cans may not be a lager yeast either.  However, I do not know it for a fact.  If the instructions said to brew around 20°C, then it is probably an ale yeast.  If they said to brew around 13°C, then it is probably a lager yeast.

If each of those containers was from a 30 litre batch, they will each be enough for a separate 60 litre batch.

Sorry if my reply is too late and you have turfed them.

 

I'm also sorry. The way I read the initial comment was, "I've got trub in a non-airtight container." I must have glossed over the part about them being sanitised.

[Classic Brewing Co]

15 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

I'm also sorry. The way I read the initial comment was, "I've got trub in a non-airtight container." I must have glossed over the part about them being sanitised.

I must admit I was was looking more at the trub, I don't recycle yeast so it just didn't look healthy to me.  

[mkinadl]

Sorry for the late reply. Internet is down & I'm plugged into my mobile nowadays...

Thanks for the info - still got the trub. It was more of an experiment to see if I can get that 'bready' smell that I've seen on youtube vids (mainly this Coopers video  ... oops, the video filled up my screen!). The Coopers videos suggest PET bottles with sanitising but all the other videos show boiling glass jars & stuff - that's why I tried the starsan'ed Decor tubs.

On 9/14/2021 at 10:49 PM, Classic Brewing Co said:

you could make a yeast starter with the packet yeast to increase the number of cells before pitching

I've seen that somewhere before but I might be confusing it with harvesting from Coopers commercial yeast - like the video I linked.

On 9/15/2021 at 9:01 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

they will each be enough for a separate 60 litre batch

Good to know, thanks. I rekn I'll try to pitch them into those $7.55 woolies extracts as a test/experiment of my abilities in sanitising (HEY! I didn't call it sterilizing or disinfecting this time!!) - those 2 turned out pretty good with the coopers light dry malt 500g in each.

...

BTW, 'washing' yeast is different to just collecting & decanting the yeast or is it the same?

Edited September 17, 2021 by mkinadl

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hey @mkinadl, good to hear back from you.

Sanitising PET bottles or other containers will usually be enough.  Sterilising through boiling just takes the insurance policy to the next level.  Obviously some equipment cannot be boiled, so clean and sanitised is the next best thing.

A yeast starter is pretty much the same as harvesting and reactivating Coopers commercial yeast.  It is a way of growing extra yeast cells.

Most of us stay away from the Woolies extracts.  A few think they are okay.  Some use them as a low hopped, liquid extract addition instead of say Coopers Light Malt Extract.  I understand your point that they could be a cheaper way of testing your success at sanitising and harvesting the yeast. 

Yeast washing is different to just harvesting straight from the trub.  There are plenty of videos on it out there.  Have a look and see if it is right for you.  I tried it once and considered that it was not worth the effort compared to just swirling up the yeast cake and collecting it like you have already done.  Yeast washing produces a cleaner/purer yeast, but because there are several decanting steps, it was a more time consuming exercise for not much benefit.  I also felt that the chances of contamination increase.

Good luck with reusing the yeast.

[mkinadl]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:21 AM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Sanitising PET bottles or other containers will usually be enough

Do they have to be air tight? My Decor containers have different type of lids (plastic & rubber locks) but I didn't use a PET bottle for the simplicity of the larger opening.

On 9/18/2021 at 11:21 AM, Shamus O'Sean said:

A yeast starter is pretty much the same as harvesting and reactivating

So a starter is when you add sugar/LME/DME, thanks. 'harvesting and reactivating' - how does the 'reactivating' work, or is that just the word used when you add a fermentable to used yeast?

 

On 9/18/2021 at 11:21 AM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Some use them as a low hopped, liquid extract addition

Toucans!! While I was searching for 60l/46l/double recipe extract, all I kept finding is two can recipes. Thats why I posted on a thread with the last post as March 15, 2019!!

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, mkinadl said:

Do they have to be air tight? My Decor containers have different type of lids (plastic & rubber locks) but I didn't use a PET bottle for the simplicity of the larger opening.

No.  In fact, it is better if they are not, just in case any pressure builds up in them.  Although this is not likely when you chuck them in the fridge soon after harvesting.

4 hours ago, mkinadl said:

So a starter is when you add sugar/LME/DME, thanks. 'harvesting and reactivating' - how does the 'reactivating' work, or is that just the word used when you add a fermentable to used yeast?

A starter is where you make up a small volume of wort usually using DME or LME and add some yeast.  You can either use a stir plate or just shake the bottle/flask/jar each time you walk past.  This process grows more yeast.  You do not usually use sugar (but you can) because it is better for the yeast to be working at consuming complex sugars, like they will be once you pitch the yeast into a full batch.

Coopers used to call their process Reactivating commercial yeast.  In the video above, they call it Harvesting. I had an each way bet and said "harvesting and reactivating".  The process is the same as for a starter.  However, I am not sure if the Coopers process is more about "waking" up the yeast rather than producing more yeast (although this will happen anyway).

4 hours ago, mkinadl said:

Toucans!! While I was searching for 60l/46l/double recipe extract, all I kept finding is two can recipes. Thats why I posted on a thread with the last post as March 15, 2019!!

Yes, it could be called a Toucan.  Although for a double (46l) batch you would need four cans for a 5% beer.  Then you could call yourself four can crazy. 

[mkinadl]

53 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

it is better if they are not, just in case any pressure builds up in them

OH YEAH!! 

53 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

not likely when you chuck them in the fridge soon after harvesting

Ummm, fridge? All the 'Coopers Commercial yeast harvesting' videos say/show to put the harvested (bottled) yeast into a cool dark place....

53 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

A starter is where you make up a small volume of wort usually using DME or LME and add some yeast

Edited September 19, 2021 by mkinadl

[mkinadl]

[couldn't add a line under the 3rd quote so...]

wort vs trub vs harvested yeast - I'm gonna say that adding a 'fermentable' to the 'xyz/abc' is a starter!

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

either use a stir plate or just shake the bottle/flask/jar each time you walk past.  This process grows more yeast

... THAT's the info I needed - I've seen 'stir plates' (kegland videos) & thought 'Naaaaaa[h]' but the 'shake the bottle/flask/jar each time you walk past' is what all 'Coopers Commercial Harvesting...' state as a thing to do (something about oxygen): locked in me head now (I hope so, after seeing sooo many vids!) - now it's time to move onto semi-advanced level!! ...but not pressure ferm yet tho!! [nor boiling with wort, wheat, hops, 20mins-until 15mins-then 5mins.....'cold drops?'.. yeah, naa]

 

I forgot to ask: There was one forum thread (from the mannnnnnnyyy toucans results) that stated: (1.) there will be a better 'result' (flavour/body/'fullness') if I leave a Coopers extract in the 'primary' for 2-4 weeks instead of the 4-7 days... I thought that was a 'bottling time' step { (2.) - I forgot the 2nd thing }

Edited September 19, 2021 by mkinadl

[Malter White]

30 minutes ago, mkinadl said:

I forgot to ask: There was one forum thread (from the mannnnnnnyyy toucans results) that stated: (1.) there will be a better 'result' (flavour/body/'fullness') if I leave a Coopers extract in the 'primary' for 2-4 weeks instead of the 4-7 days... I thought that was a 'bottling time' step { (2.) - I forgot the 2nd thing }

I'm not sure if leaving the primary ferment longer assists flavour/body/fullness. It might, I just don't know. However it does definitely assist with allowing more particulates to drop out of the beer. Giving you less sediment and hopefully clearer beer overall.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hey @mkinadl,

When I mentioned the fridge, I was talking about when you harvest trub from the bottom of the fermenter into a sanitised jar.  You usually just put the jar straight into the fridge.  Pull it out when you are ready to use it.

When you harvest yeast from bottles, it does not go in the fridge.  It needs room temperature to ferment the starter wort. 

It is fair to say "that adding a 'fermentable' to the 'xyz/abc' is a starter"

Like Muzzy, I do not know whether leaving the beer on yeast for an extended period is necessary or beneficial.

[mkinadl]

2 hours ago, MUZZY said:

not sure if leaving the primary ferment longer assists flavour/body/fullness. It might, I just don't know. However it does definitely assist with allowing more particulates to drop out of the beer. Giving you less sediment

Yep, I re-read it & found that it's exactly as you both stated (after reading the 2nd post that I saved). Thank you both.

2 hours ago, mkinadl said:

(2.) - I forgot the 2nd thing

The Q2 I forgot was - how long can I keep trub/reused yeast (both with & without the stirring/shake) coz I have not touched it since...? I've seen yt vids that say 4 times & others that say at least 8 times if its a ..04 or ..05 (US, UK or something)

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by mkinadl

[Pickles Jones]

I have found that leaving the brew in the FV for 14 days allows the yeast to do what it has to do and clean up but that's me. I have recently allowed the brew to remain in the FV for four weeks without any issues, in a temperature controlled environment.  However I don't know if it adds anything to the outcome other than allowing me to work around the fermenting process time instead of being locked in to exact times.

 

 

[mkinadl]

43 minutes ago, Pickles Jones said:

I have found that leaving the brew in the FV for 14 days allows the yeast to do what it has to do and clean up but that's me. I have recently allowed the brew to remain in the FV for four weeks without any issues, in a temperature controlled environment.

I'm thinking a similar path - FG, once it's there for a couple o' days I thought - OK, jobs done , bottle up! ie. once the 'fermentables' have been fermented, there's no point in adding time - after all, we're talking about cans of extract/concentrate (AKA. Coopers/Woolies).

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, mkinadl said:

The Q2 I forgot was - how long can I keep trub/reused yeast (both with & without the stirring/shake) coz I have not touched it since...? I've seen yt vids that say 4 times & others that say at least 8 times if its a ..04 or ..05 (US, UK or something)

I have only reused trub twice.  Because the trub contains some impurities, I would not recommend going beyond the 4 times you mention. 

Also, a typical yeast cake has enough yeast to do three extra brews.  Therefore, it is not really necessary to do multiple reuses.  Imagine 1 brew produces three lots of yeast; the three yeasts produce nine yeasts between them; the nine yeasts produce 27 yeasts between them.  This is tons more yeast than mast people will ever need.

On the question of how long can you leave it in the fridge before you reuse it, I say about 4 months.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ Is a yeast calculator that can help with figuring out how much yeast to harvest, how much yeast is needed for a brew, what size of starter to grow more yeast, and how many live yeast cells are left in your slurry.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Shamus O'Sean

[mkinadl]

On 9/19/2021 at 10:00 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

On the question of how long can you leave it in the fridge before you reuse it, I say about 4 months

I guess 'blooming' will be my next step to help test/check for impurities since the trub has been sitting in a 'cool' place since I collected it ('cool' not being the fridge). I've also not shaken, stirred or agitated it. I did not take into account that trub is more than just water, yeast, fermentables in a sanitised container... or is it?

I've been collecting info about yeast harvesting/ collecting/ 'creating'/ re-using/ cleaning/ washing from various places (ie. 'blooming' comes from pizza making, a year before I looked into homebrew youtu.be/SDpCzJw2xm4?t=58 & 'creating' yeast comes from the time when I lost my job which led me to the cheapest way to make grog, main vid was youtu.be/XzPaINFECzQ?t=31)

Rekn you guys may suggest dumping the trub but I just sniffed it (as per Coopers vids) & there were no vinegar smells - but there were no 'bready' smells either (as per those same Coopers vids)... woolies extract/concentrate - here I come.

EDIT: sorry for the late reply - looking into a new internet connection as my prepay mastercard from auspost.com.au/everydaycard has problems paying my current 'credit card only' internet subscription (+1 for the old Load&Go AusPost mastercard!!)

Edited September 24, 2021 by mkinadl

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, mkinadl said:

Rekn you guys may suggest dumping the trub but I just sniffed it (as per Coopers vids) & there were no vinegar smells - but there were no 'bready' smells either (as per those same Coopers vids)... woolies extract/concentrate - here I come.

EDIT: sorry for the late reply - looking into a new internet connection as my prepay mastercard from auspost.com.au/everydaycard has problems paying my current 'credit card only' internet subscription (+1 for the old Load&Go AusPost mastercard!!)

If there is a nasty smell to your yeast, however you have obtained it, then dump.  No smell is still okay.

My son swears by the Load 'n' Go card.  That way the government cannot see how much money he has and if somebody scams his card, the best they get is a few bucks.  In fact I am using it to pay my BrewFather subscription in a few days.