Water questions 2019

[Shamus O'Sean]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:12 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

Water pH doesn't really matter anyway, it's mash pH that's important. A general idea with dark beers is to use water with a moderate to high carbonate content. This provides an added buffer against the dark roasted grains dropping the mash pH too far. 

I generally aim for a mash pH around 5.2-5.4 for light coloured beers and around 5.6 for the dark ones. I use a combination of water chemistry and the malt grist to achieve it. 

Hi Otto

What advice can you and the crew give us kit brewers regarding pH?

I have recently listened to Brewsmith Podcast 60 and 61 regarding water and pH was a main topic.  They concurred with you and emphasised it was mash pH that is important.  The conversation was all about AG brewers though.  It did make me think that the having the right pH in a brew is like having the right seasoning in food.  

I only do kits and some extract brewing, both of which probably deal with pH in their production.  However, it seems to me if I am adding something like 21 litres of tap water with a pH of about 7.3 (I am in Melbourne, 4km from Cardinia Res and 10km from Silvan Res) to my kit, the pH before fermenting could produce a blander beer than adding stuff to my tap water so its pH is closer to the likely pH used to produce the kit concentrate.

Thoughts?

[Otto Von Blotto]

It doesn't really matter much with kit and extract brewing because there's little you can do, but what's important is that the wort in the fermenter is at a pH of 5.0-5.2. Acid would be the addition needed to drop the pH if required.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

I bought a pH meter early into my all grain brews and in my experience other than a slightly better efficiency it doesn't mean too much.  What is more important by far is the mineral make up of the water. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

If you delve into it, it does have an effect on things. One such thing is getting a good hot break. I read somewhere recently about adding small amounts of  calcium chloride or sulphate into the boil in the same ratio they were used in the mash to drop the boil pH down to where it should be, so I decided to give it a go and immediately noticed the break material clump together in large pieces, which it hadn't without these mineral additions. 

However, whether this kind of thing would be noticed at the glass is a different matter, and in terms of kit and extract brewing it's a non issue in the first place.

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It doesn't really matter much with kit and extract brewing because there's little you can do, but what's important is that the wort in the fermenter is at a pH of 5.0-5.2. Acid would be the addition needed to drop the pH if required.

What could we use as an acid addition?  Would something like Citric Acid do the trick?  Any ideas how much to use to drop a typical 23L brew from pH 6 to 5?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Citric would work but you should measure it before adding anything, chances are you won't need to add anything. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

18 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Citric would work but you should measure it before adding anything, chances are you won't need to add anything. 

Why do you think I would not need to add anything?  Is it the combination of how Coopers manufacture the kits plus my use of Melbourne water.  Would an Adelaidian have to do something that I do not have to worry about?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Well, how do you know the pH of the wort if you don't measure it? There's no point making additions if you don't know what you're correcting or if it even needs it. It's probably already sitting in the low 5s. 

My tap water is around 7.7-7.9 pH but the mash still ends up around 5.4 once the grains are in, and I can reduce it further with acid malt. When I use distilled water and add back minerals I deliberately keep the carbonate content low to keep the mash pH where I want it; I still add a small amount of acid malt but it's less than I use when mashing in tap water. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

I currently use rainwater that is filtered with an undersink filter. The tanks the water come from are a mix of plastic and cement (2 plastic tanks feed into 1 cement tank). The cement one is cleaned regularly but is pretty old.

I haven't looked into testing my water yet - I'm considering giving some spring water from the shops a go next week to see if it makes any difference to the final beer. 

I'm not quite getting the hoppiness I'd expect from my beers even with generous  late and cube hops. There's a reasonable chance it's down to recipe design on my behalf but I wanted to see if the water makes a difference to a recipe I've used recently. Try and check off one thing at a time.

As I'll be using spring water, are there any  other easy additions I could make to it given that the properties of the spring water can be known? (Or is it not that easy?) I'll be making an American pale ale.

[ozlizard]

I use rainwater from our tank, so no problems there! Considering that most of what you are drinking is water, it's pretty important I would think.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

I use rainwater a lot for my AG brews. If you are using rainwater for a hoppy beer you need additions. Straight rainwater is great for a pilsener but for a hoppy type beer it aint. Add 8gm of gypsum to your mash for the hoppy ones. Makes a world of difference.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

4 hours ago, Popo said:

I currently use rainwater that is filtered with an undersink filter. The tanks the water come from are a mix of plastic and cement (2 plastic tanks feed into 1 cement tank). The cement one is cleaned regularly but is pretty old.

I haven't looked into testing my water yet - I'm considering giving some spring water from the shops a go next week to see if it makes any difference to the final beer. 

I'm not quite getting the hoppiness I'd expect from my beers even with generous  late and cube hops. There's a reasonable chance it's down to recipe design on my behalf but I wanted to see if the water makes a difference to a recipe I've used recently. Try and check off one thing at a time.

As I'll be using spring water, are there any  other easy additions I could make to it given that the properties of the spring water can be known? (Or is it not that easy?) I'll be making an American pale ale.

No need to test the rain water mate. It wont quite be free of minerals but its close. Ph will be around 5.5 ish. Rainwater is great for beer even in Sydney.

[Popo the Reprobate]

15 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

I use rainwater a lot for my AG brews. If you are using rainwater for a hoppy beer you need additions. Straight rainwater is great for a pilsener but for a hoppy type beer it aint. Add 8gm of gypsum to your mash for the hoppy ones. Makes a world of difference.

Cheers @Greeny1525229549  

I'll give it a go - just sprinkle it in? Get it from LHBS?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I usually mix it up in a little water first, but it doesn't fully dissolve. It is then added to the mash water before it's heated to strike temp and given a little stir. Then the water is heated, and the movement created by the heating finishes off the dissolving. 

I use distilled water for most of my beers, and create various profiles with mineral salt additions. Other than the pH being different in rainwater, which doesn't really have any effect anyway, there aren't a lot of differences in terms of what's required for different styles. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Popo the Reprobate]

Thanks man.

[Hairy]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I usually mix it up in a little water first, but it doesn't fully dissolve. It is then added to the mash water before it's heated to strike temp and given a little stir. Then the water is heated, and the movement created by the heating finishes off the dissolving. 

You mix it in water first because it doesn’t fully dissolve in water? 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Most does, like Epsom salts, table salt, sodium bicarbonate and calcium chloride, I just find it easier to throw the rest in at the same time and tip it all into the urn. Gypsum somewhat dissolves but there probably isn't enough water in a 500ml jug to fully dissolve it like the others. 

Chalk won't dissolve at all unless it's in carbonated water under pressure, but the brewing software calculates its contribution to alkalinity on it not being dissolved. 

Sometimes I weigh them out and throw them straight in the urn before the strike water. I don't really use much carbonate unless it's in a dark beer because it hinders the mash pH from dropping down to the preferred range.

[Pezzza]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:39 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi Otto

What advice can you and the crew give us kit brewers regarding pH?

Really enjoyed reading through this thread and the different input from the group - Thanks Capitano for kicking it off - and Shamus for the pH Qn.

Dunno whether anyone is interested and am not trying to belt people over the head with textbook water chemistry.... but it may be of interest to some....

so here goes:  Salts are made up by a Cat-ion and an An-ion... e.g. NaCl Sodium Chloride... Na+ is the Cat-ion and Cl- is the An-ion.

In general Sodium salts and Potassium salts are more soluble, while Calcium less so.

However, Chlorides are more soluble than Sulphates and Carbonates... 

So obviously NaCl - Sodium Chloride - table salt main ingredient - is highly soluble.  And Calcium Chloride is good.

But CaSO4 Gypsum, and CaCO3 Calcium Carbonate - Chalk - Limestone - are less soluble.

Rain water and I suspect most Spring Water should be low on total soluble salts... and be less buffered  - so adding the grain or the concentrate will drive the pH.

Highly buffered solutions with higher levels of soluble salts are harder to force pH change.

Like Kelsey says - Bris water although inherent pH around 8 - total soluble salts low - think around 240uS/cm from memory - is driven down to good brewing pH by the mash... and acidulated malt can help that as well.

You guys who make up solutions specifically for brews will know way more than me - but my gut feel would be that Calcium salts - and possibly Carbonates - are going to make a bigger impact on the mash and final mouth-feel etc than Sodium and Potassium salts... 

Having read up ages ago - it seemed like what Greeny says is the go - Pilseners are good with the rain water low Ca thing - while Burton-on-Trent style Bitters need the Ca in the water - as one of the reasons they are what they are is due to the inherent Calcium Bicarbonate and Sulphate higher levels... 

Down the water chemistry rabbit hole we go 

But I am with Kelsey on measuring first before adding any acidifying influence...  and you can get 'pH strips' which you dip in and read off the colour change which should give you an indication of the pH in solution... not hyper accurate but certainly would be a start.

Note too that the pH Strip Kits are often only for specific ranges e.g. pH 0-6... think some too 4.5-9.... cheaper than a meter and no calibration requirements ; )

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sodium salts aren't heavily used in brewing water because you don't want or need a lot of sodium in it. I find everything dissolves pretty easily except for calcium carbonate (chalk). 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

5 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Down the water chemistry rabbit hole we go 

 

Yeah went down that rabbit hole bigtime BB. Must admit though i dont care too much for pH much anymore. Mineral content of the water is very important in my opinion to the overall flavour of the beer but other than a couple of points in efficiency pH of the mash dont matter too much to me anymore. Go the strip kits otherwise you might be like me and end up with a meter you dont use too much

[Pezzza]

18 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Yeah went down that rabbit hole bigtime BB. Must admit though i dont care too much for pH much anymore. Mineral content of the water is very important in my opinion to the overall flavour of the beer but other than a couple of points in efficiency pH of the mash dont matter too much to me anymore. Go the strip kits otherwise you might be like me and end up with a meter you dont use too much

Mate do you think that the Calcium addition is a potential for a big win - I have really only ever done distilled water - and rainwater - and mostly ales... and only now gone up a gear into temp control... only just now done my first lager controlled temp and just bottled it... but am also trying to go into AG and have just done my first and will start a thread I think on Mash Tun Temp Control which I had big probs with...  but am wondering whether some Calc into very low total soluble salts water might moderate the water a bit - as the old style standard easy way brew always seems to taste a little on the acid side.... still good... but just a little tinge of Acid on the palate...  with Cooper KnK...  

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

If you are using rainwater and doing a hoppy beer using a calcium addition through gypsum is a huge win in my opinion. Like chalk and cheese with the way the hops come through in the taste.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's the sulphate that brings out the hops, but calcium is important as well. It helps yeast flocculate better. 

I find keeping the pH where it should be improves the hot break; the wort should be around 5.0-5.1 pH at end of boil, and if you are using water with a low carbonate content then you'll probably hit target pH without any need for acid additions. 

I use my pH meter most brews, even just to confirm I'm in the right range. However even if I didn't use it much for beer it does come in handy for checking the pool water pH as well. 

[Pezzza]

11 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

If you are using rainwater and doing a hoppy beer using a calcium addition through gypsum is a huge win in my opinion. Like chalk and cheese with the way the hops come through in the taste.

Like chalk more than cheese hopefully Greeny 

[PaddyBrew2]

So I’ve been reading up a bit on the water chemistry side of things. John Palmer has a great section on it. Very scientific but gave me a migraine trying to understand it all

in lay mans terms , you only need to adjust based on the ph of your mash rather than the water itself. The less alkaline the better.  I may be over simplifying this just a tad but could you just take the ph of the mash and then add the various salts etc to get it where you want it ?